Feats that reduce saves

[kolvar]

After checking, what you can trade in for combat-bonuses, I was thinking about doing feats, where you could temporaryly trade in reflex-saves for AC (and maybe fortitude saves for DR).
kind of:

you trade in one or more points of reflex-save for an equal amount of points of AC. The AC-Bonus will stay for 2 rounds per level. You regain the reflex-save-bonus only after a night sleep


what do you think about something like that.
(it is just a fast shot at a half-baked concept)

 

[Li Shenron]

Well, I honestly think of it in the RP terms, and it doesn't make much sense for a character to have the ability to trade reflex with agility (I suppose you are talking about a dodge bonus to AC). The two things really go together, don't you think?

I could see your point if you traded vitality for agility or viceversa, that could make some sense, something like -x to Fort saves for a +x to AC. I don't know if I would make it a one-on-one trade, and definitely I'd put a cap, such as +/-5 like Expertise.

 

[kolvar]

I thought of it on the line, that you have a short burst of reflex, which would give you a better defense, but suffer on the long run.
You are right, it should be a dodge-bonus.
The cap is a good thought.
The way you describe makes sense too. I was thinking about will to AC (putting your willpower into withstanding damage)

 

[dvvega]

What you mentioned sounds like some sort of Adrenalin Rush kind of feat.

A lot of game systems/PC games had it (Rolemaster with Adrenal Defense, Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind with Adrenalin Rush for Redguards).

What you're looking at as a sudden burst of Adrenalin which increases something (strength, or dexterity or constitution).

This basically sounds like a Barbarian's Rage, but the side effects would be extreme fatigue, maybe some damage (subdual or real) as the adrenalin settles, shaky hands etc.

 

[kolvar]

kind of.
I was looking for a mechanism, that was not used allready. You can channel close to anything into combat-modifications (turning undead, AC to attack or damage, attack to AC, attack to damage, hit points to spells, psionics or what ever ...). Saves are, as far as I know, not used for this, yet.

 

[dvvega]

I think that you're trying to stretch things out too much. Saving throws are instinctual, while the other things you mentioned are conscious efforts.

You get fireballed, you're going to dive out of the way instinctively. Whereas sacrificing your attack roll to get extra damage (Power Attack) is something you consciously do.

Perhaps that is why there is nothing for saving throws?

If you want to ignore this minor fact, then just do whatever you want.

Use a 2 for 1 sacrifice, to a maximum of the base save modifier (without bonuses etc). So a 3rd level rogue with a +3 reflex modifier could only get a +1 for the sacrifice. While a 20th level rogue could get +6.

Then you just limit what you can get in relation to the save itself. However you shouldn't replace current feats.

Giving dodge bonus to AC is in the realm of Doge, Mobility, Expertise, etc ... so giving dodge bonuses shouldn't be allowed by Reflex sacrifice since it would stack with all other dodge bonuses.

However that's a simple mechanic. Even 3 for 1 would be better.

 

[kolvar]

actually you just gave me an even better explanation for such a feat: for a short period of time you are able to rely on your reflexes for your defence even more than on your training.

Maybe with a bit of tinkering to allow it only under special circumstances (only when the character would be denied his dexterity bonus e.g. Would not cancel sneaks, but gives still a bonus)

 

[Stalker0]

It sounds more like a mental trance kind of thing to me. For instance.

Reflexive Trance
You focus all thought to create catlike reflexes.
Prereqs: Iron Will
Benefit: You can subtract a number from your base will saves and add it to your reflex save. You cannot subtract more than your base will save.

Basically you are concentrating so much on reacting, that you are vulnerable to mind control and the like. I think you could do this for reflex and will fairly well, because those are more on a mental, instinctual, concentration thing. It wouldn't work well for fort stuff, because that's the body doing its thing, its not really something you could control.

If you don't want the whole save for a save thing, you could subtract will to add to AC. Or subtract wisdom to add to AC. If your going to do this however, make sure its a -2/+1 or higher, as AC is usually needed much more often than the will save.

 

[Mike Sullivan]

It sounds overpowered to me. A reasonably adept player can often quickly suss out an encounter where saves (particularly saves of a certain type) are not likely to come up. If you could trade your Reflex save for AC, and you encountered, say, a group of humans all wearing heavy armor, why wouldn't you do that trade?

Other abilities like Power Attack and Expertise are, by nature, difficult trades. Since they're usable only in melee, you can pretty much count on the fact that you want to maximize your attack bonus, your damage bonus, and your AC. Thus, trading one off for the other is a decision not to be made lightly.

 

[Stalker0]

It sounds overpowered to me. A reasonably adept player can often quickly suss out an encounter where saves (particularly saves of a certain type) are not likely to come up. If you could trade your Reflex save for AC, and you encountered, say, a group of humans all wearing heavy armor, why wouldn't you do that trade?

Other abilities like Power Attack and Expertise are, by nature, difficult trades. Since they're usable only in melee, you can pretty much count on the fact that you want to maximize your attack bonus, your damage bonus, and your AC. Thus, trading one off for the other is a decision not to be made lightly.

True, the only way to make it work would be to force the change to last a decent amount of time, like a few hours or something. Then the penalty could be a problem.