Feeblemind and Break Enchantment

[Spiteful Dwarf]

I want to hear what you guys think about a Break Enchantment spell possibly being used to counter a Feebleminded wizard...

Feeblemind specifically states that it can only be countered by Heal, Limited Wish, Miracle, or Wish... But Break Enchantment states that it is useful on any enchantment or transmutation. Since BE is so non-specific, which spells would you consider to be eligible for the countering?

 

[the Jester]

I'd say, in this case, feeblemind trumps BE. It's quite specific about how you can fix it.

 

[Caliban]

I want to hear what you guys think about a Break Enchantment spell possibly being used to counter a Feebleminded wizard...

Feeblemind specifically states that it can only be countered by Heal, Limited Wish, Miracle, or Wish... But Break Enchantment states that it is useful on any enchantment or transmutation. Since BE is so non-specific, which spells would you consider to be eligible for the countering?

Break Enchantment should have a chance of working. Feeblemind is an enchantment of 5th level or lower that can't be removed with a Dispel Magic. That meets the conditions for Break Enchantment, but you would still need a caster level check.

 

[Spiteful Dwarf]

This ain't good! I need more results to better make a decision! So far, I've gotten one yea, and one nay.


I must make a ruling by Sunday...

 

[frankthedm]

This ain't good! I need more results to better make a decision! So far, I've gotten one yea, and one nay.


I must make a ruling by Sunday...

Feeblemind
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes
If the target creature fails a Will saving throw, its Intelligence and Charisma scores each drop to 1. The affected creature is unable to use Intelligence- or Charisma-based skills, cast spells, understand language, or communicate coherently. Still, it knows who its friends are and can follow them and even protect them. The subject remains in this state until a heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish spell is used to cancel the effect of the feeblemind. A creature that can cast arcane spells, such as a sorcerer or a wizard, takes a –4 penalty on its saving throw.
Material Component: A handful of clay, crystal, glass, or mineral spheres.

Break Enchantment
Abjuration
Level: Brd 4, Clr 5, Luck 5, Pal 4, Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: Up to one creature per level, all within 30 ft. of each other
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: No
This spell frees victims from enchantments, transmutations, and curses. Break enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous effect. For each such effect, you make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level, maximum +15) against a DC of 11 + caster level of the effect. Success means that the creature is free of the spell, curse, or effect. For a cursed magic item, the DC is 25.
If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower.
If the effect comes from some permanent magic item break enchantment does not remove the curse from the item, but it does frees the victim from the item’s effects.


I say BE does not undo feeblemind.

Feeblemind specificly requires 1 of 4 spells to undo it.

 

[Humanophile]

Consider me yea, for three reasons;

First, Break Enchantment is higher level than Feeblemind. When in doubt, the higher level effect trumps.

Second, defense tends to trump offense, all else being equal.

Third, directly based on the second point, is that it really, really sucks to have random effects holding your character back. Especially something as all-encompassing and debhilitating as Feeblemind. As such, unless a curse or drawback is specifically meant to require a long, arduous task to remove, it's best to be liberal in what restores the character.

 

[Quez The Lame]

Can't see that.

BE is not of higher level than Feeblemind, it's equal (for bards and paladins lower).
Feeblemind lists specific spells that can cancel it, and that list does not contain BE.
According to the rules there is no way to undo Feeblemind by using Break Enchantment.

Heal, being the least level spell of Feeblemind's counters, is 6th level. So there is no chance for a party of 10th level characters to get rid of Feeblemind on their own, even though they could be able to cast it themselves. Feeblemind has no expensive spell component, no XP cost, and it is even more difficult to save against for spellcasters.
There should be a way to dispel it using magic of equal power and i would allow the use of BE as a house rule.

 

[Humanophile]

Can't see that.

BE is not of higher level than Feeblemind, it's equal (for bards and paladins lower).

Whoops, misremembered across editions. The "defense trumps offense" bit still holds (see Discern Location/Mind Blank), as well as the "being feebleminded sucks" bit encourage me to be more charitable in my reading.

 

[Scion]

I would certainly let break enchantment kill feeblemind. Even though feeb lists ways that it can be undone break enchantment specifies that it can break things that are normally unbreakable.

Is feeblemind an enchantment? yes.
Instantaneous? yes
5th level or lower? yes

Just like if I was to create a new spell that did something special and very specific it would have a chance to override other spells already in existance.

Same sort of thing, but I think that break enchantment would definately trump feeblemind in this case.

 

[da chicken]

I agree with Scion. Spiteful Dwarf's claim that feeblemind can "only be countered by Heal, Limited Wish, Miracle, or Wish" is not supported by the text of the spell. The spell lists explicit effects that remove the state of feeblemind. Feeblemine in no way makes the listed spells exclusive in that field.

If the spell listed nothing, the only spells that could remove the state of feeblemind would be wish, miracle, and break enchantment. Limited wish is ambiguous as to whether or not it would work. [Note: Yes, I realize that heal explicitly mentions feeblemind. That's irrelevant to the point.]

Reminds me of the argument that 3.0 disintegrate was negated by break enchantment.