Fell Weaken/Fell Drain: your thoughts

[SteveC]

You must be at least a third level character, however; for the same level, a single unmodified scorching ray will do the same against almost any 1st level target, without you having to invest in a feat; and for a 1st level slot color spray is much more of an encounter killer anyway.

I think this is a pretty good point. I guess my problem is that with color spray you have a saving throw and scorching ray can still roll poorly for damage (believe me, I know about this one ) but with this combo, BAM, if it hits you you're just dead. I don't dislike it enough to suggest that the DM ban the feat, but I think I'm going to recommend moving it to +3 levels.

--Steve

 

[ThoughtfulOwl]

I think this is a pretty good point. I guess my problem is that with color spray you have a saving throw and scorching ray can still roll poorly for damage (believe me, I know about this one ) but with this combo, BAM, if it hits you you're just dead. I don't dislike it enough to suggest that the DM ban the feat, but I think I'm going to recommend moving it to +3 levels.

--Steve

It isn't so bad; color spray allows a saving throw, true, but it doesn't require a touch attack and hits an area: target a group of 4~5 enemies and chances are that at least a couple is out of the picture; all for a slot one level lower than a fell drain ray of frost. Plus, the latter would be utterly nullified by cold resistance 5, while it takes a bit more of fire resistance to nullify scorching ray.

Also, consider the real meaning: to use fell drain you must be at least a third level character; most 1 HD enemies have CR 1 or less. You are saying that by using one of your top spell slots you can get rid in one hit of a challenge quite below your level: considering that a CR 3 challenge should require 1/4 of the resources of a 4-person 3rd level party, you are already spending too much, if you ask me.

It is a matter of perspective: maybe we can't agree, but try to consider what a 1 HD enemy reaaly constitutes for a 3rd+ level character.

 

[Diirk]

Speaking of 1HD enemies... pixie anyone ? CR 4-5, use Acid Splash and you don't even need to worry about spell resistance Of course you do need see invisibility or some such...

(Although their HP are so low that even just an acid arrow will take care of them too, so it doesn't matter too much)

 

[SteveC]

Speaking of 1HD enemies... pixie anyone ? CR 4-5, use Acid Splash and you don't even need to worry about spell resistance Of course you do need see invisibility or some such...

(Although their HP are so low that even just an acid arrow will take care of them too, so it doesn't matter too much)

You see, this is not making me feel more comfortable with the concept :\ ...

As the feat has been discussed, I think my problem with it is FINALLY coming to light. The benefits are entirely independant of the spell's level. This makes it MUCH more attractive to apply to very low level spells. I'm not sure how to balance it better, so I think I'm just going to leave it at +3.

 

[ThoughtfulOwl]

Consider, however, that one-hit-kills are the exception, not the rule; against enemies with more than a couple of HDs, you need to hit them at least two or even three times before the penalties become relevant; forget the spell level: for the level-independent benefit of fell drain you are paying with an equally level-independent cost, character actions.

At low levels, you are casting lower level spells in your highest level slots. Sure, your 5th level wizard could cast two fell drain magic missiles and bestow two negative levels each to three enemies (in addition to 2d4+2 damage), but in most cases they would be better served by two fireballs, by a summoned celestial dire badger followed by haste on the whole party or by other combinations of regular 3rd level spells.

At high levels you can use your low level slots instead of the big guns, but it is a war of attrition: a fell draining low level spell won't do much to a powerful opponent: casting 3~4 of them means that you spend a handful rounds just to erode their effectiveness, while they can tackle your party like there is no tomorrow; a single powerful spell in the opening round, instead, could do much more work and cut the encounter in half.

 

[Khristos]

I am the unlucky person on the other side of this argument ( the player) personally I see it as a metamagic featl with greater potential in the hands of NPCs than players. Also it misses entire categories of encounters for usefulness (I expect we shall encounter a decent share of undead and constructs) As a player I am usually more amused doing things other than hp damage (although the original poster can confirm my original character in the campaign was a damage juggernaut as an Orc BArbarian with monkey grip and power attack at 3rd lvl). Those familiar with my past posts will know I prefer doing ability damage and penalties to creatures instead of being direct and killing things with a sudden maximized fireball at those delightful frail lower mid levels

 

[Undead Lincoln]

The feats look a little strong because multiple instances of the feats stack, and there is no save for either. The feats can devestate opponents, especially spellcasters (they could actually be paralyzed by STR loss and the loss of spell slots hurts).

I might allow either with a fortitude save to negate the effects.

The other problem I have is that this makes the feats more important than the base spells. I can easily see your player using a magic missle just to deliver the effects of the feat to up to 5 targets. And with stacking and no saves, I can see at higher levels a quickened fell weakness magic missle followed by a fell weakness magic missle.

 

[Khristos]

The problem with that is fell weakness can only effect a target once (stated under the feat in Libris Mortis) until the fell weakness runs out. Then of course they could be affected by it again. With fell drain again it in no way stacks up with sudden maximize with the way the campaign has been run (1 or 2 encounters a day) I would also be quick to point out that we havent faced a hostile creature with fewer than 5 HD (thereby limiting the instant death argument)
In terms of level my character is actually the lowest level (without receiving ANY adjustment to xps gained) being nearly 2 levels behind the group (most are near 5th lvl) so in player effect I am actually better able to have an effect by delivering penalties to foes (after the group closes my character will have a hard time hitting with a ray spell as there would be a -4 to hit the touch AC of opponents who generally have been able to claim a touch AC of 12). Currently the character is 1 lvl from actually being able to cast 2nd lvl spells (current build is Elven Wizard: 1 Elf Paragon: 2 Gray Elf). This character is the replacement for a poor unfortunate warlock(slain by a flash ruling reversal) who replaced the poor unfortunate Orc BArbarian(slain by an orc fighter who had over 140 hps....granted the monkey gripped large greatsword critical while raging dealt 60 pts of damage so this overpowered foe took a beating and might have fallen if our monsterous minotaur had joined in the damaging fun) with a temporary ehrm... halfling played while we waited for the Complete Arcane to be released between the 2 characters.

 

[SteveC]

The feats look a little strong because multiple instances of the feats stack, and there is no save for either. The feats can devestate opponents, especially spellcasters (they could actually be paralyzed by STR loss and the loss of spell slots hurts).

I might allow either with a fortitude save to negate the effects.

The other problem I have is that this makes the feats more important than the base spells. I can easily see your player using a magic missle just to deliver the effects of the feat to up to 5 targets. And with stacking and no saves, I can see at higher levels a quickened fell weakness magic missle followed by a fell weakness magic missle.

This is pretty much the issue that I have with the feat. I don't mind the fell weaken feat, since it doesn't stack with itself. Fell Drain on the other hand overshadows the spells it's likely to be used with. A level 5 fireball that causes a level loss would probably be balanced, but I don't think it would likely be used, since there are better 5th level alternatives. A Fell Drain acid splash or magic missile is much more likely to be used, and in that case the metamagic feat is better than the spell itself (especially with an acid splash).

If I really wanted to get into a lot of detail for the feats I'd probably make the drain have a save, and range in effect based on the base spell level. Since I don't think it's that important an issue, I'm just more comfortable leaving it at +3. If anyone else would like to make a suggestion along some other lines, my lazy...bones...will probably use that...

--Steve

 

[Khristos]

My suggestion is leave it at +2 as it was written needless to say that will be my argument at the gaming table tomorrow which will probably turn into a multi hour thing leaving me bitter in the end as the DM will take your advice over any logic I can present..... maybe I should just make the Divine persistant spell cleric instead for safe boredom (or a variant of the character type as there are better metamgic feats to use than persistant magic) Have to do something to hang with the group power(since my roleplaying concept is being trashed if this goes to a +3 as I should make 7th lvl in a year at which time I can just suddenly maximize an enervation spell after casting a true strike on myself.... oh look something more powerful than a freakin fell drain )