Fencer Class - now v3

[cooperflood]

I like the general idea of what you’re trying to do and love the formatting and flavor text; however your class represents a significant amount of power creep. You claim to be trying to create a hybrid class, but in the end you gave the class the best of both worlds; great Defender abilities and great Striker Abilities. You took next to no abilities away from the Fighter and just added lots of Ranger abilities and powers to the Fighter concept.

One of your primary concerns seems to be the lack of AC in a light armor class. There is no need for the +3 to AC you gave them under Fencer Combat Talent. You are aware that a DEX or INT based character in Hide will have nearly the same AC as a character in Plate Armor (assuming all else is equal). There is a thread on the Wizards forum that explores the maximum Defense scores that covers this pretty well, but their forums seem down at this time. A Character with a starting DEX of 20 in Hide ends up with an AC of 35 at level 30 (Level-15, Hide-5, DEX-8, Enhancement-6) while a character in Plate ends up with an AC of 35 at level 30 (Level-15, Plate 14, Enhancement-6). Assuming you were actually trying to get the highest AC possible I’m pretty sure (but not 100%) that Hide would be your choice (Pit Fighter +1, Demigod +1, Heavy Shield +2, and Shield Specialization or Armor Mastery +1 for a Theoretical Cap of 40). Add of course you get this high AC without the penalties that come from Heavy Armor.

I think a simpler way to accomplish the class your after is to take the Fighter class and make a few simple changes.

1st) Switch any reference of STR with DEX and vice versa.
2nd) Switch any reference of WIS with CHA and vice versa.
3rd) Give them four skills and add Acrobatics, Bluff, and Diplomacy to the Skill List
4th) Change Bonuses to Defense to: Fortitude +1, Reflex +1
5th) Remove Chainmail, Scale, and Heavy Shield from the Armor Proficiencies
6th) Add all those new Fencer feats and Paragon paths (Need to change Attributes, for some reason they are still STR based)
7th) Change all the fighter flavor text to the stuff you wrote for the Fencer

These changes will make a solid Swashbuckler in the vein you’re looking for. However if this still isn’t enough you can still add in a few Ranger Exploits changed to reflex the DEX and CHA attributes and the single weapon focus. This will certainly result in power creep, but should be kept reasonably under control if you limit it to the guidelines set by the Multi-Class Feats (aka no more than one ranger exploit per category At-Will/ Encounter/Daily/Utility).

Creating the Two-Weapon Fighter/Dervish is even easier. Simply give the Ranger class the same treatment, minus steps 4 and 5. The two-weapon fighter won’t have the same stickiness of the Swashbuckler, but I honestly don’t think they should from a flavor or a mechanics point of view. The two-weapon fighter is sacrificing some hit points and challenge feature for a lot more damage. However the simple change of STR -> DEX will definitely make for a higher AC than your normal two-weapon fighting ranger (aka power creep). Again you can convert some fighter exploits (following the same guidelines) but in this case I don’t think it will be as much of a problem. Secondly if you really feel the need for more defender type qualities take the Pathfinder Paragon class (rewriting the flavor of course) it brings plenty of it, despite the name. I don’t know if this is the type of feedback you were looking for, but it is what it is.

By the way I really do like the Blade Bravado and Blademaster classes, they defiantly give the fighter a very unique feel. And balance wise they’re on par with the more powerful WotC Paragon Classes. It’s just so much easier to balance a Paragon class than an entire base class, and in the end it changes your character’s flavor almost as much.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

I don't see any way in which Fencer is not a good name, and you provide no justification for your logic.

well anyone who fights with melee weapons is a fencer (or just swords, i forget) but regardless it a trivial complaint.

 

[generalhenry]

well anyone who fights with melee weapons is a

. . . fighter . . .

 

[Khaalis]

well anyone who fights with melee weapons is a

. . . fighter . . .

FIGHTER
1. a boxer; pugilist.
2. a person who fights.

FENCER
1. a person who practices the art of fencing with a sword, foil, etc.
2. a person who fences.

Which is more closely related to a melee weapon combatant and which should be classified as the "monk-type"?

Some other synonyms:
combatant, warrior, soldier, champion, gladiator, bruiser, trooper, duelist, scrapper, vindicator, hero, knight, veteran

 

[generalhenry]

it was a cheap joke, no need to take it seriously.

Though duelist does have some merit.

anyways, I should take the time to read v3 before posting anything serious

 

[generalhenry]

the highest AC in the game isn't from godplate. It's from hide +maxed stat.

the fencer can two points higher than that

but that's 30th, how about 1st level

1st level plate + shield = ac 20
1st level 20 dex + leather + shield = ac 22!



Combat challenge steps on fighter toes, Two-Blade Fighting Style steps on ranger toes.

Riposte is unprecedented and overpowered.

Sweeping Strike is blatantly overpowered, more damage than Dire Wolverine Strike AND better class feature synergy since you get to mark them all.

er... Sweeping Strikes? when you have an ability called Sweeping Strike

immune to fear and charm effects

!!! way more powerful in 4E

Emboldening Bravado, a Leader ability? why?




It's a fighter with the best TWF ranger abilities added in.

 

[erik_the_guy]

Striker/Defender, interesting

The Riposte at will power is too good. Every fencer would take it. Compare it to the rogues riposte strike (an at will power of the same level). The rogue class focuses on counter-attack type abilities and is therefore a valid comparison. The rogue must use a power and hit with an attack in order to be allowed a riposte strike. This limits the rogue to one riposte a turn, and only against a target he hits with his riposte strike attack. Your fencer doesn't have to use any power to get his riposte. He can use a daily, a second wind, or a different attack and still get a riposte against an enemy. Your fencer can make a riposte against everyone who attacks him, while the rogue can only make one riposte, against his target. I suggest you make it only work when an enemy you have marked attacks you, or you use it as a minor action and choose a single target, then get a counter attack if they attack you.



You should re-write the weapon and shield type to only give the benefit to light shields, since they resemble bucklers closely. The fencer could abuse the feature by taking heavy shield proficiency and now having +3 from his shield, and further by taking shield specialization. I don't think it fits the flavor of a fencer to tote a heavy shield .

The +2 bonus with leather armor means that the player will be a little better off than hide armor when compared to other striker types. At most levels the player's AC will be 1 point higher than other strikers that have hide armor proficiency or players in plate armor (not including shields, feats etc). In fact, this player has essentially the highest AC of any class if they max out their dexterity score (AC 19 at first level, AC 23 at 15th, AC 26 at 30th from only armor and stat bonus). If you take a modestly high starting DEX score of only 18, then you will have as much AC as a full plate wearing character. This does not agree with your description of the fencer as "not as heavily armored as a true defender". I don't think it is a game balance issue.

This character seems to have more fighter than ranger features. Unlike other strikers, the fencer does not gain bonus damage dice on most turns. You do not have the fighters large array of proficiencies, but you get the same bonus from light shields as others do from heavy, and your leather armor is as good as his plate mail if not better. You even have the fighter's full marking ability and get the fighters +1 to attacks.
As far as I can see, this class is a defender. You have exchanged the fighters 'combat superiority' for a choice between the rangers two weapon fighting style or a shield style. You have about the same AC as a fighter, but with lighter armor, for increased mobility. The shield and sword style is similar to the guardian fighter (a defense based defender) and the two weapon style is similar to the great weapon fighter (an offense based fighter). The great weapon fighter is not a striker/defender, it is just a defender. I also think your fencer is a defender, not a striker.

The other difference between this class and the fighter is the powers.
Some are similar to the rogue/ranger skill choices, but they do not have the same damage dealing capabilities as those classes. Powers like bolstering strike are important for your fencer since the HP recovery is necessary for a defender. I like how you take powers from the fighter list and they still work for the fencer's weapons. I suggest you take this a step further and write up some powers that gain benefits from the various fencer weapons.

 

[Khaalis]

it was a cheap joke, no need to take it seriously.
Though duelist does have some merit.
anyways, I should take the time to read v3 before posting anything serious

Wasn’t taken that way. It’s just that the name has already been a point of contention.

the highest AC in the game isn't from godplate. It's from hide +maxed stat.

I’m not sure where you are getting that. What am I missing?
• Highest Stat bonus = +9 (at 28) [starting 20 + 8 increases]
• Elderhide (+5) + Stat (+9) + Enhancement (+6) = +20
• Godplate (+14) + Enhancement (+6) = +20
• Starleather (+4) + Stat (+9) + Enhancement (+6) = +19

1st level plate + shield = ac 20
1st level 20 dex + leather + shield = ac 22!

Again, I’m not sure where you are getting this.
• Plate (+8) + Heavy Shield (+2) = +10 (20 AC)
• Leather (+2) + Light Shield (+1) + Stat (+5) + Class (+2) = +10 (20 AC)
(They only gain proficiency in light shield.)

the fencer can two points higher than that
but that's 30th, how about 1st level

By my account its 1 more.

However, these points do bring up a good issue. The class isn’t supposed to be higher AC. On the original pass, the question would the class be able to stand up as a hybrid defender with lower AC. This will mean the removal of the +2 AC bonus.

Combat challenge steps on fighter toes, Two-Blade Fighting Style steps on ranger toes.

That was part of the point in the initial design process. The class is supposed to be a hybrid Defender / Striker made 95% purely from already existing powers in the PHB.

Riposte is unprecedented and overpowered.

Please quantify this. Why is it overpowered?

Sweeping Strike is blatantly overpowered, more damage than Dire Wolverine Strike AND better class feature synergy since you get to mark them all.

Sweeping Strike is a typo. Should be 1[W].

er... Sweeping Strikes? when you have an ability called Sweeping Strike

Good catch. When doing so many new names they all start to blur.
Renamed = Sweeping Assault?

immune to fear and charm effects…
!!! way more powerful in 4E

This is exactly the same as the 16th level Justicar path power “Just Shelter” so it is not unprecedented.

Emboldening Bravado, a Leader ability? why?

Why not? It is fitting to the style of the paragon path. Other classes dip into other roles as well. Any suggestions for something else?

It's a fighter with the best TWF ranger abilities added in.

Again, that was part of the point… making a hybrid defender/striker from the existing classes and powers and making it a unique class rather than the lame attempts at multiclassing this archetype.

The Riposte at will power is too good. {snip}

That is a useful summary. What if I go back to the original concept (building using existing powers), and simply make it an adaptation of the Rogue version.

RIPOSTE – Fencer Attack 1
With a calculated strike, you leave your foe vulnerable to an adroit riposte should he dare attack you.
At-Will ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action – Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a fencer weapon.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage. If the target attacks you before the start of your next turn, you make your riposte against the target as an immediate interrupt: a Strength vs. AC attack that deals 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Increase damage to 2[W] + Dexterity modifier and riposte to 2[W] + Strength modifier at 21st level.

You should re-write the weapon and shield type to only give the benefit to light shields, since they resemble bucklers closely. The fencer could abuse the feature by taking heavy shield proficiency and now having +3 from his shield, and further by taking shield specialization. I don't think it fits the flavor of a fencer to tote a heavy shield.

Good point. I’ll change this to explicitly call out light shields. The same goes for any powers that require a shield.

RE: On armor…

I’ve gotten the same comments from GH, so I’m dropping the entire “Fencer’s Combat Style” class feature.

This character seems to have more fighter than ranger features. {snip}
The other difference between this class and the fighter is the powers.
Some are similar to the rogue/ranger skill choices, but they do not have the same damage dealing capabilities as those classes.

The actual powers are split pretty equal 50/50. The loss of the bonus to armor and the bonus to Attack, reduces the closeness to fighter. To make them more striker (more 50/50) that would require to add a slight damage increase.

What I am currently thinking of is the following:

PRECISE STRIKE
Once per round, against an enemy you have marked and when you are using a fencer weapon, an attack you make against that enemy deals extra damage if the attack hits. You decide whether to apply the extra damage after making the damage roll. As you advance in level, your extra damage increases.
Level – Extra Damage
1st – 10th -- +1d6
11th – 20th -- +2d6
21st – 30th -- +3d6

I like how you take powers from the fighter list and they still work for the fencer's weapons. I suggest you take this a step further and write up some powers that gain benefits from the various fencer weapons.

Any suggestions? I had intentionally not done, this as I was trying to stick to the design philosophy of building this Hybrid almost exclusively from the existing powers in the PHB. I hadn’t wanted to get into writing new powers. Riposte is a perfect example of why, which only came about as people had directed the class to a new power for that slot.

 

[generalhenry]

I’m not sure where you are getting that. What am I missing?

demigod, max stat is +10

(They only gain proficiency in light shield.)

I assumed they would take heavy shield (they have no reason why they shouldn't)

So:

Leather (+2) + Heavy Shield (+2) + sword and shield (+1) + Stat (+5) + Class (+2) = +12 (22 AC)

Why is it overpowered?

It's an at will interrupt. Normally all at wills are standard actions, and all interrupts are at least encounter powers. It's an essential part of that whole economy of actions thing. In short, it gives them too many attacks.

and simply make it an adaptation of the Rogue version.

It's much better that way.








ok so to step back a second, it's a fighter/ranger dual class?

 

[Khaalis]

demigod, max stat is +10

I hadn't taken into account the demigod since its the exception rather than the rule (especially once there are more epic destinies to choose from).

It's an at will interrupt. Normally all at wills are standard actions, and all interrupts are at least encounter powers. It's an essential part of that whole economy of actions thing. In short, it gives them too many attacks.
...
It's much better that way.

This makes sense now. So noted.

ok so to step back a second, it's a fighter/ranger dual class?

A hybrid Defender / Striker based on the fighter and dual wielding (which is currently only ranger), so yes in a manner of speaking its a dual-class.

From the original post...
"This is an exercise in basic class design using strictly a combination of elements of fighter and ranger to create a lightly armored, mobile, hybrid defender / striker that focuses on allowing for two basic builds –sword and shield (swashbuckler) and two-sword (duelist)."