D&D 5E Feral Instinct; Prescient Barbarians Problem

[Shadowdweller00]

This is regardless of range, difficulty, possibly even line of sight or relatedness. Is he studying a map with his back turned while an invisible, hiding and heavily concealed elf is taking aim 800' away? He knows and could possibly even act before the arrow is released. Stranger still, if the elf would want to take a shot at one of his friends, he would still know something is amiss. Heck, he would probably know if his horse was targeted, while the animal and the rest of the party can be surprised in the first round, he never is What if his friend, a rogue, rolled an 18 for his hide check, still being spotted by the elf sniper but being hidden from the barbarian? The elf would grab his weapon, initiative would be rolled, surprise would be determined, first round would start, with the barbarian knowing and being able to act, all while being ignorant of both the attacker and target, possibly even before the elf had drawn his bow.

So why wouldn't it work on NPC's then? What level of relatedness or personal danger is required? Does talking to a stranger on the street, as in a previous example build enough affinity to give the barbarian a chance to stop an assassination attempt? What if it was 100' away? Could he have a chance of interrupting a fight between two groups of NPC's, feeling their intentions? What if it happens out of sight? Even if the insight check would be so difficult that other players wouldn't have a chance of noticing, the barbarian doesn't need a check and would know something is off.

The GM is the arbiter of all. However, there are no such range limitations listed in the ability. Basically, every SINGLE time initiative goes off the ability triggers. Do note that if the barbarian does not attack a hostile creature or take damage then the rage stops.

Situation: A minor DEITY prepares to fire an arrow through an invisible planar portal at the barbarian's party.
DM: Ok, everyone roll intiative. BARBARIAN, the hairs on the back of your neck stand up and you are not surprised. Everyone else is.
<Rolls occur and barbarian wins initiative>
DM: Ok, BARBARIAN, it's your turn. You have sense of imminent danger and need to rage or forfeit your turn. But you can't see or hear anything immediately suspicious.
BARBARIAN: Ok, I rage and umm....I dodge?
DM: You are aware that dodge doesn't work against hidden foes and that if you don't attack or take damage then the rage will end?
BARBARIAN: Ok, then...I guess I ready an action to throw a javelin at the first apparent enemy I see.
...And combat proceeds as expected.

[sblock]DM: Ok, a ray of moonlight seems to fly out of nowhere and...hits BARD at AC:53. I presume that strikes?
BARD: Uhh...yeah.
DM: Ok, you take 793 points of radiant damage.
BARD: That's like ten times my max hit points!
DM: Ok, BARD is enveloped in flash of silvery light. His body crumbles to a pile of fine sand which blows away in the breeze. None of you see anything still, but nobody is surprised any more. Your turn again, Barbarian. Your rage has worn off.
BARBARIAN: I try to search for a source...Investigation roll of 16?
DM: You THINK you remember seeing the ray of light come from THIS square, but there are no immediate signs of an enemy or any other disturbance over there. Well...aside from a few remaining grains of BARD that have made their way over there.
BARBARIAN: I rage again and move up to that space.
DM: Another ray of light flashes beside you, Barbarian, and strikes Wizard for 750 points of radiant damage.
BARBARIAN: It's striking with disadvantage because it's using a ranged attack and I'm adjacent, right?
DM: You still can't discern anything, but that possibility has been taken into account. The ray still hits.
WIZARD: Wait, I cast shield as a reaction.
DM: Ok, the ray strikes AC: 51. That still hits, right?
WIZARD: Yeah...
DM: Wizard also crumbles to dust. Go ahead, Cleric.
CLERIC: I uhh pray to my god and run inside that building over there.
DM: You're up, Rogue
ROGUE: I run around screaming "Why, why?" and then drop prone.
DM: Back to the top. Barbarian your rage has worn off again. What do you do?
BARBARIAN: That last ray came from this space?
DM: Yup.
BARBARIAN: Ok, I try to strike whatever is in that space.
DM: Go ahead and roll, at disadvantage.
<The barbarian rolls>
BARBARIAN: Ok, that's AC 17.
DM: Your axe flies through the air, contacting nothing. Another ray of light flashes from that space....flying between Barbarian's legs. It curves sharply through the doorway of the building and flies at Cleric.
<DM rolls>
CLERIC: WHAT!!?!!
DM: Ok, whatever the thing is - for some reason unbeknownst to you (OOC: the deity can't see the cleric through the portal, but its literally godlike hearing pinpoints the location of the poor priest anyway) the ray of light has disadvantage. But it still hits AC 47. I presume that strikes.
CLERIC, groaning: Yes.
DM: Ok, 697 damage points of radiant damage. The rest of you see a brief flash of light from inside that building. Your turn, Rogue.
ROGUE: Steve, why precisely are we playing this game again?
[/sblock]

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

During our last session a strange phenomena crept up: the party was investigating a cavern complex and most of the party was checking out one side of a T-intersection, poking around in the webs of well-concealed spiders while the barbarian was 20 feet away searching the other corridor. The PC's who were searching through the webs rolled their perception checks and failed to notice the spiders who, gaining surprise leapt into their faces. But no! The barbarian stated that because of his Feral Instinct he preconsciously felt the danger befalling his party, and because he rolled and won initiative with advantage he could jump into the fray and slaughter the spiders before they even had the chance to jump into the necks of his unknowing comrades!

that sounds cool. I even know how I would narrate it... "Bob, your barbarian gets a bad feeling, and stops feeling the air move and listening to the small almost unperceivable sounds you launch yourself half blind unsure what you are attacking. Your axe cleaves through the small spiders no one else has even noticed, they fall over your allies they were about to attack."

Well, just being a grindy side-encounter it didn't really matter to me if his character was able to pre-emptively smite lurking arachnids from 20' away, but I realized that other situations might come up, lots of other possible scenarios where abilities like this would give rise to unrealistic, or even quite silly and counterproductive results. So where to draw the line?

no line needed, heck just imagine the barbarian has spider sense (he he pun's are bad) and that they work as plot needs.

What if the party is walking through the streets and a well-concealed assassin is training a crossbow on one of the party-members forehead, with the intent to pull the trigger? As the hidden killer rolled ungodly high on his hide check he is unnoticed and gains surprise, but the barbarian acts faster and... can't do nothing!

I'ld tell him that you know X person is about to get shot, and let him tackle him to the ground to save him...

Oh, he might go into a rage and wander around, but when the assassins turn comes up he could simply decide to slink back into the shadows for another chance, never giving away his identity, maybe even repeating the same tactic over and over, draining the barbarian of his daily rages by just waving a pointy thing at them from afar...

If I were a player, even not the barbarian, I would get pissed real quick at this game and reconsider my involvement with it...

What is the range of this ability anyway?

the same range you can begin an encounter from...

What is the party is all streched-out and one of the members is about to open a door and start an encounter by getting surprised by a mimic that poses as the door itself? Can the barbarian act in the surprise round if he was in the same corridor 30' away? 100'? 200'? And line of sight, what if it was only 10', but around a corner? Would he know the nature of the danger? The range, direction?

if there was no surprise would the barbarian be in the encounter? there is your yes/no...

example: Party is split at two ends of the same hall way. If either team is attacked the assumption would be they all fight... then it goes off.

example 2: Party are in 2 different rooms, if one part gets into a fight the DM doesn't expect it to effect the other half... it doesn't work

Would he know if it was his own, his parties or someone else's act or intention that triggered it? Could the barbarian act before the mimic even revealed itself, even though none actually knew it was there?

yes, combat is pretty much in game simo, we roll initiative out of game... The mimic attacks, but the barbarian swings faster and hits it as it morphs... out of game barbarian acts on a 22, mimic on a 17...

In the game the mimic isn't waiting for the barbarian, then attacking, then waiting for everyone else to go including the barbarian again, then attack again... it all happens in 3-6 seconds....

Would he know that the random guy just passing in the crowd was actally just a hair away of plunging his concealed knive into the back of one of the party members?

yes he is reacting to the motion as the knife comes out and the guy is moving...

Would he know it if the thug was about to strike down a random passer-by?

if it isn't important to the game skip it, if it is let him choose to react or not...

Could he warn others that something was about to happen if he rolled highest on initiative?

he could yell "Knife" the same way one secret service agent yells "gun" to make the others react.

What if nothing happens just because his reaction to the looming danger and the thug or mimic, still unnoticed, holds back, changing intent that should have triggered the barbarians reaction the first place? Paradoxes.

again, reacting like that is supernatural... and should not be done for no reason... the barbarian reacted to the surprise and as such is triggered by the surprise, the attacker can't unact...

And again, what's the point of having advantage on initiative in a surprise situation when most of the time this advantage will only result in being unable to react to the surprise itself?

exactly... so don't try to bend things to work that way... let him react...

Bob the Barbarian and Miffy the Mage are about to be sniped by elven separatists, surprise is declared, initiative is rolled, Bob, elves and then Miffy coming up... Bob feels danger but sees nothing, elves snipe him and the mage: because his initiative advantage Bob was just as useless during the surprise round as Miffy; unable to do anything. If i was the barbarian I would want to forfeit my advantage now delaying is not an option anymore.

or since bob goes first he reacts as the snipers are firing, but before the bolts hit... aka 1st in initiative.

Something just feel amiss with these rules, never mind the incompleteness...

only because you are trying to bend the rules... play them as is..

step 1) Elf sniper declairs attack, and as such a surprise round is rolled.
step 2) perception check, Miffy the mage misses it.
step 3) Initiative everyone rolls, but miffy can't act until next round.
Step 4) from top to bottom take actions... if that means Barbarian act first, then let him act first

 

[-=Xar=-]

Thanks for all the replies, cleared things up a lot!

So as the rules are quite clear on what happens once combat starts and initiative is rolled, the decision to whether involve the barbarian in the combat or not is the DM's call, dictated by common sense: Feral Sense only kicks in if there is a significant and acute danger to the barbarian himself.

So the power wouldn't activate if the rogue several rooms away was about to be bitten by a tiny spider as this danger is nor close enough nor endangering the barbarians person. The rogue might scream for help or antidote but the rest of the party could only react on the second round. Nor seem NPC's fighting among themselves trigger this power; the scenario with "suddenly you hear sounds of a fight from an adjoining room" could still occur; if the barbarian would intervene he again could only do so in the second round, effectively surprising him. The barbarians wife is about to be assassinated several rooms away? The barbarian wouldn't feel it coming and only after the fight erupts he can roll to see if he can hear the muffled sounds, or rush in if screams are heard.

So in essence the power doesn't guarantee that the barbarian can act on the first turn of every combat that occurs in the vicinity: he might still be caught unaware by a fight erupting outside the limits of his normal awareness that is not involving him directly: he would pass the first turn unaware and unable to act, without even having an initiative, still being surprised in effect (although it would be called 'out-of-combat' ). So the wording in the power description that the barbarian 'cannot be surprised' is more a specific and not a generic rule. Am I on the right track here?

 

[neobolts]

It looks like you've got it worked out now, but I wanted to throw in a thought...

Barbarian doesn't work this way, but even if a character was prescient of all surprise attacks that were about to occur to any creature in a certain range, is that a problem? Would a psychic warrior or similar concept with Spiderman's spider sense be an unreasonable core class feature? With the right flavor and presentation, I would say it seems within the bounds of the game.