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<blockquote data-quote="LostSoul" data-source="post: 5560170" data-attributes="member: 386">This is going to be a controversial statement.&nbsp; I don't want people to think I'm just bashing 4E or edition warring; it's made in good faith in an attempt to understand how 4E works.It's my opinion that movement and position, including terrain, in the combat system is not fictional; it's part of the real world, just like character sheets and dice.I think it's because tactical positioning, movement, cover, terrain, etc. are all put on the grid and interacted with by moving miniatures around.&nbsp; When you play 4E it's too easy to see the lines on the grid - both the 5' squares and the lines denoting walls and terrain - instead of what they represent in the game world.One of the players in my 4E hack game recently joined a regular 4E game.&nbsp; She described a lot of the things I noticed back when I was playing regular 4E - players staring at their character sheets, etc.&nbsp; She described an encounter in a forest with vines on the map as difficult terrain, but when she was playing she didn't imagine vines - she saw squiggly lines drawn on a sheet of grid paper.I think this makes it harder to use fictional positioning in play.&nbsp; I can imagine a wand or orb wizard grabbing a vine to hold out in front of him to help parry a club or mace (but not a sword or axe), or using the vines to garrotte a foe, or possibly a trip attack.&nbsp; I don't think these often occur to players because it's too easy to focus on the lines on the paper instead of what they represent in the game world.I think if you drop minis then terrain, movement, tactical positions, cover, all of that moves from the real world into the imagined game world, and it's more likely that it will be interacted with.edit: I have some thoughts on 4E's currency regarding positioning elements of characters, but that will have to wait.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="LostSoul, post: 5560170, member: 386"] This is going to be a controversial statement. I don't want people to think I'm just bashing 4E or edition warring; it's made in good faith in an attempt to understand how 4E works. It's my opinion that movement and position, including terrain, in the combat system is [i]not[/i] fictional; it's part of the real world, just like character sheets and dice. I think it's because tactical positioning, movement, cover, terrain, etc. are all put on the grid and interacted with by moving miniatures around. When you play 4E it's too easy to see the lines on the grid - both the 5' squares and the lines denoting walls and terrain - instead of what they represent in the game world. One of the players in my 4E hack game recently joined a regular 4E game. She described a lot of the things I noticed back when I was playing regular 4E - players staring at their character sheets, etc. She described an encounter in a forest with vines on the map as difficult terrain, but when she was playing she didn't imagine vines - she saw squiggly lines drawn on a sheet of grid paper. I think this makes it harder to use fictional positioning in play. I can imagine a wand or orb wizard grabbing a vine to hold out in front of him to help parry a club or mace (but not a sword or axe), or using the vines to garrotte a foe, or possibly a trip attack. I don't think these often occur to players because it's too easy to focus on the lines on the paper instead of what they represent in the game world. I think if you drop minis then terrain, movement, tactical positions, cover, all of that moves from the real world into the imagined game world, and it's more likely that it will be interacted with. edit: I have some thoughts on 4E's currency regarding positioning elements of characters, but that will have to wait. [/QUOTE]

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