Fight Your Own Summon for XP, would you allow it?

[kitcik]

No idea what you're pointing to there, sorry.

Sorry, that tag broke.

Try this.

I think [MENTION=6671197]Meadyaon[/MENTION] 's threads center around a lot of well written fluff that needs some direction.

 

[Visigani]

How does this differ significantly from the X-Men's Danger Room?

The key here is to turn the creature into a form of tucker's kobold....

 

[KiloGex]

I would allow the Summoner to call a creature and then have the party fight it. However, once the creature was attacked I would take control of it as its caster has turned against it. I would also not give XP for the kill, plus I would hamper the use of the summon spell - Similar to a paladin or cleric who has strayed off the path, the summoned creatures would not trust the caster.

Perhaps a diplomacy check of some sort to bring the creature from neutral to friendly would be needed, with the possibility of the summon going hostile if the check fails significantly enough.

 

[KiloGex]

Well, yes. You make a good point. I think I'd choose to rather not allow it though (should it ever come up, which it won't), simply because a certain type of player might find it unfair that they angered some supernatural creature through their own stupidity and blame it all on the GM, i.e. me.

You know what solves this question line?

Player: What the hell?! Why did you send some Summons Keeper after us?!
GM: Why? Maybe because you were using your summons as a punching bag.
Player: You didn't say that I couldn't though, so I figured it was a good idea.
GM: My job isn't to tell you what's right and wrong, simply to make sure what needs to happen does. Live and let learn.

End scene.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I would allow it. But as a conscious playstyle goal, I try not to run the kind of game in which this seems like a good idea. You can summon the monsters and you can fight them for XP-- but you only get XP for encounters if they're legitimately challenging or dangerous for you.

Since the summoner won't allow his summoned beasts to kill you, you only get half XP for the encounter if you win. If you lose, if he dismisses them, or if he orders them to pull their punches you don't even get that.

Oh? And if you're doing in this in the middle of the dungeon? Random encounter checks.

I believe in XP, and I'll let the PCs earn XP doing almost anything-- but they have to earn it.

 

[Li Shenron]

I would let the players go ahead and summon their punch bag, except that the punch bag would win the fight

 

[Empirate]

I would allow it. But as a conscious playstyle goal, I try not to run the kind of game in which this seems like a good idea. You can summon the monsters and you can fight them for XP-- but you only get XP for encounters if they're legitimately challenging or dangerous for you.

Since the summoner won't allow his summoned beasts to kill you, you only get half XP for the encounter if you win. If you lose, if he dismisses them, or if he orders them to pull their punches you don't even get that.

Oh? And if you're doing in this in the middle of the dungeon? Random encounter checks.

I believe in XP, and I'll let the PCs earn XP doing almost anything-- but they have to earn it.

Those restrictions sound like they would accomplish exactly zero in a group that's already prone to cheesy XP grind scenarios.
"'Legitimately challenging only?' That's fine, I'll not command my summons to stand motionless while you guys hack away - I'll summon them inside a pit instead! Now what burrowing creature can I summon to dig that pit for me..."
"Half XP only? It's OK, I'm a Focused Conjurer, I got enough spell slots to still make this work! It'll just detract twice as much from the time spent being actual heroes, but that's fine with me!"
"Random encounter? Hey, more grind, and this time, there's even loot attached! Good times! Let's stage our summons showmatches right at the next dungeon's front door, so random encounters can happen, but the way back to town is still short - that way, we can sell our phat lootz!"

If you allow summons XP grind at all, be ready to make up a lot of rules regulating the way it works. Clever players inclined to take that route will probably still find ways to make you cry yourself to sleep after play.


To be sure, if the PCs found out they'll be going up against a powerful demon next week, and the summoner says "you know guys, let's get some practical experience fighting those things. I set up a gig and you guys try your best to hurt my champion!", that's cool with me. The PCs get a chance to find out about typical demon defenses (immunities, resistances etc.), and that's good. In-game, such an experience will probably help them in the upcoming fight. Possibly, it will even enough to make their chances a bit better mechanically - in other words, they might earn enough XP to level up before the big bad comes along (if they were close to leveling up already, that is).

However, I would grant those XP for a very good idea - not for the mitigated-risk summons showmatches themselves.

All in all, I find the idea of PCs knowing about XP and how to get them abhorrent. Furthermore, players willing to grind just to level up seem as if they're simply not interested enough in my carefully crafted plot, NPCs, world, atmosphere etc. to be worth playing with. In fact, a player suggesting to XP grind instead of exploring the scenario would feel like a slap in the face to me.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

All in all, I find the idea of PCs knowing about XP and how to get them abhorrent.

XP is a mechanical expression of a spiritual philosophy I already hold to be true about this world-- that greatness comes through surpassing obstacles and overcoming adversity. It is reasonable for PCs to intuitively understand that facing challenges and testing their abilities is the fastest way to grow, and to deliberately construct such challenges for themselves.

Only reason to discourage it, from a gamist perspective, is that grinding simple encounters is boring. The goal shouldn't, in my opinion, be to make it less rewarding but instead to make it more interesting. PCs should never gain XP for doing anything boring.