Fighter Archetype, 1/3 Cleric Caster: Crusader

RonLugge

First Post
So a recent game saw me come up with a character whose concept has been evolving. He started out as a death cleric, started growing, changing, becoming, and in the end I find myself thinking that he isn't a cleric. He's a fighter with a dash of divine magic. Not really a paladin, either. Their spell list is wrong, and he most definitely wouldn't like any of the available paladin oaths.

So I put together this idea, and I'd love to hear some feedback.

https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-LQ1iQlOepOeQJkKoL5Q
 

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At a quick glance, this looks pretty good.

I would remove the Domain aspect: stick to the core Cleric spell list, and (consequently) only Turn Undead for the Channel Divinity. It is not only cleaner, but it keeps the Domains for clerics specifically. (It also avoids the possibility of having two domains, with a multiclass Cleric/Fighter -- that would be just too much.)

If that feels too constraining for the Channel Divinity, then you could simply substitute War Magic and you're good.

What strikes me as most interesting in this is that by keeping the same schools of magic as being favoured as the Eldritch Knight, you get a completely different flavour of spellcaster. That's really cool.

Finally, I would specify that you can use your shield as a holy symbol/focus. It's implicit in the rules anyway, but it fits the feel of a crusader.
 

I would remove the Domain aspect: stick to the core Cleric spell list, and (consequently) only Turn Undead for the Channel Divinity. It is not only cleaner, but it keeps the Domains for clerics specifically. (It also avoids the possibility of having two domains, with a multiclass Cleric/Fighter -- that would be just too much.)

At one point in the editing process, I must have (accidentally) stripped out the wording that you couldn't have two domains. The intent is that if you multiclass, you have to have the same domain.

I wanted the domain spell lists because those help form the identity of the different deities as much as the clerics. A Crusader of Lathander and a Crusader of Tyr and a Crusader of Mystra etc etc should all be distinct entities. I'd actually be happier giving up the channel divinities than the domain lists.

What strikes me as most interesting in this is that by keeping the same schools of magic as being favoured as the Eldritch Knight, you get a completely different flavour of spellcaster. That's really cool.

Agreed. It was almost an accident, but when I realized that healing spells were evocation it just kind of fell into place. Honestly, I've always hated that Eldritch Knight took Evocation, because there are so few good evocation spells that don't rely on level scaling to keep up. Burning hands and magic missile, for example, rapidly start to suck outside of T1 unless you really upcast them or have backing wizard features of some sort. Healing spells like Healing Word, on the other hand, are just plain awesome at any spell level, properly used.
 

The spells known text refers to wizard spells. I would actually keep the limited spell list of the eldritch knoght and have the crusader only chose from the domain list of spells and one spell of level, the spell at level 8 and the one can be any cleric spell.
Maybe you could a bit more lenient and allow a bit more freeform spell selection but I would keep it tight.
 

The spells known text refers to wizard spells. I would actually keep the limited spell list of the eldritch knoght and have the crusader only chose from the domain list of spells and one spell of level, the spell at level 8 and the one can be any cleric spell.

The intent was only cleric spells, and only evocation / abjuration. I fixed the text up a bit -- a lot of copy & paste errors.

I did add the domain spells, but that felt like a good way to add the 'flavor' of different gods in.
 



Good stuff! I think the capstone needs work, since this essentially obviates two weapon fighting, GWM, PAM and Crossbow Master, and clashes with Shield Master.

I came up with divine subclasses for Fighters and Rogues some time ago, you may want to try them out:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423152-Divine-Subclasses-Fighter-and-Rogue-(PEACH)

Thanks for the link, I'll definitely look over and see if you give me any ideas. That said, the 'capstone' is literally a copy of Eldritch Knight's level 18 bonus. Please explain how it 'obviates' any of the items you mentioned, I just don't see it. It reduces their power level slightly, but it's not like a Crusader would have enough spell slots to cast a useful spell every single turn. Or would even want to! TLDR for the rest: potential minor DPS boost depending on build, but the spell slot usage makes it unsustainable long-term. (And of course, level 20 negates said boost)

Lets do some math. I'm going to assume that at level 18, a fighter has a +5 in their relevant attack stat(s), just to balance everything out.

Inflict Wounds at level 4 would do 6d10 (average 33) damage, which is nice. Add in 1D8+5 (average 9.5) from a one-handed weapon attack for a turn-average of 42.5. Compare that to three regular attacks, doing 28.5, and I'll freely grant it does a touch more damage. Except by level 18, a fighter can reasonably be assumed to have taken either a fighting style or a feat to improve that. Even a simple dueling fighting style increases it to 44.5 vs 36.5, quickly closing the different. The more damage you get out of your weapon attacks, the more that gap moves in favor of the weapon attacks. A +1 weapon makes it 45.5 vs 39.5, with the weapon attacks having an improved probability to hit that moves it even further. +2 makes it 46. vs 42.5, +3 moves it to 47.5 vs 45.5. Oh, wait, maybe the fighter has a flame tongue instead of a flat +x. Or maybe instead of a one handed weapon, they're using a 2H weapon and the math is all wrong.

I started out simple, assuming a +5 to both wisdom and strength and no modifiers. But the more you move away from that baseline assumption, the more it breaks down. And that's assuming spells were at will, which they aren't. They use spell slots, a sharply limited resource. You get one -- count it one -- fourth level spell slot. The fighter will probably want to save that for other things. Just like a Cleric, Inflict Wounds is ok, but it's a filler. A high level Cleric doesn't use Inflict Wounds as a baseline, they use Spirit Guardians. Or Death Ward. Guardian of Faith, Blindness/Deafness, even Bless. The list goes on and on. And that's just combat utility. Sending. Freedom of Action. Remove Curse! All great options that might be chosen to round out the fighter's abilities rather than try and spec into the combat stuff they're already awesome at.
 


I misread the ability, I thought it said when you make an attack, you get a bonus action attack. My apologies.

That... would explain the complete and utter disconnect between our positions.

Honestly, even ignoring the feats I'd be 'obviating', that's the type of straight-up power creep I try to avoid when possible.
 

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