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<blockquote data-quote="GMforPowergamers" data-source="post: 8975004" data-attributes="member: 67338"><p>I didn't play 1e so I'm not sure if it's the same as 2e, but in 2e the save for charm person was a save vs spells and it started at 15 or 16 so you had a 25ish% chance to just say no, and that wizard had 0 spells untiil the next day. once you got to level 5 or 6 that was closer to 50/50</p><p></p><p>today you have a DC of 8+ prof + stat mod... so the DC starts around 13 but could be as high as 15 but that charm lasts less time. </p><p></p><p>but again no wizard today is chooseing between charm and 4 other spells... they are preping 4 spells so charm is only eating up 1 prep spot and they cast 2... BUT they also have 3 cantrips at will. </p><p></p><p>you see the wizard has gotten MORE versitile not less and the wizard has gotten MORE power...</p><p></p><p></p><p>now a 2e fighter had 1d10hp maybe with +1 from con and the wizard had 1d4 hp most likely not but maybe _1 from con... if you used the max 1st level rule it was 11 or12 vs 4 or 5</p><p></p><p></p><p>in 5e max 1st level is the default and the fighter has 10+ 2 or 3 most likely and the wizard has 6+1 or 2 most likely... so we went from 11 vs 5 to 12 or 13 vs 7 or 8</p><p></p><p>level 2 the wizard gets 1 more spell preped and 1 more spell per day... or in 5e 1 more spell preped and 1 more spell perday, but remember I can prep detect magic, charm person, magic missle, burning hands, and disguise self and just use those 2 spells per day (plus recall 1 for short rest ) all for detect magic or all for burning hands or all for disguise self or 1 for disguise and 1 for detect and 1 for magic missle or any other combanation.... OH and the 5e wizard gets a subclass ability. </p><p></p><p>you don't see the wizard getting a MASSIVE buff here? </p><p></p><p>fireballs that you had to be acerful didin't back blast, and that again took up slots not just per day but preped... if you have 2 3rd level spells and you want to be able to cast fireball in both now you can prep it once, then you had to prep it as the ONLY 3rd level spell </p><p></p><p>they just used to have limiters on them. by the time you could throw a fireball most spells you throw were 50/50 the target makes there save... today at best 1/3 of the time (2 prof saves) the target keeps up with the same level you do for DC. </p><p></p><p>because wizards had no hp, could not be prof in armor, or most weapons, and had to prep spells that were going to be saved against as often as not and some enemies just had a % chance to negate it... all those options came with MASSIVE restrictions. </p><p></p><p></p><p>if it was a player issue why do the same players run into it in 3e/3.5 and 5e but not 2e and 4e... if it was a player issue it would come up in all 4. </p><p></p><p>wrong, like I just showed... take the same group run them in 2e, 3e, 4e, and 5e you will see the issue in the two that the mechanic problem is there. (now 4e and 2e handle the solution VERY diffrent but they do both handle it)</p><p></p><p>or weapon and non weapon profs</p><p></p><p>my player as a 9th level fighter can not raise the dead, a cleric can. </p><p></p><p>becusae the cool stuff the fighter could do were hit, have hps and shrug off spell effect... it wasn't "Oh my fighter does 20% more damage thent eh wizard" it was "My fighter deals 5x the damage of the wizard" it wasn't "My fighter had 2hp per level (+4 at 1st level) then teh wizard it was "I have double maybe tripple the hp of the wizard:" and that wizard had HUGE limits (spell known spells prep spells per day)</p><p></p><p>yes. I am. (I mean I am normally more generous and assume they don't understand, the concept of the problem like you don't seem to) </p><p>there is nothing a fighter can do with an ability check or skill or feat that a wizard can't do with an ability check skill or feat.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="GMforPowergamers, post: 8975004, member: 67338"] I didn't play 1e so I'm not sure if it's the same as 2e, but in 2e the save for charm person was a save vs spells and it started at 15 or 16 so you had a 25ish% chance to just say no, and that wizard had 0 spells untiil the next day. once you got to level 5 or 6 that was closer to 50/50 today you have a DC of 8+ prof + stat mod... so the DC starts around 13 but could be as high as 15 but that charm lasts less time. but again no wizard today is chooseing between charm and 4 other spells... they are preping 4 spells so charm is only eating up 1 prep spot and they cast 2... BUT they also have 3 cantrips at will. you see the wizard has gotten MORE versitile not less and the wizard has gotten MORE power... now a 2e fighter had 1d10hp maybe with +1 from con and the wizard had 1d4 hp most likely not but maybe _1 from con... if you used the max 1st level rule it was 11 or12 vs 4 or 5 in 5e max 1st level is the default and the fighter has 10+ 2 or 3 most likely and the wizard has 6+1 or 2 most likely... so we went from 11 vs 5 to 12 or 13 vs 7 or 8 level 2 the wizard gets 1 more spell preped and 1 more spell per day... or in 5e 1 more spell preped and 1 more spell perday, but remember I can prep detect magic, charm person, magic missle, burning hands, and disguise self and just use those 2 spells per day (plus recall 1 for short rest ) all for detect magic or all for burning hands or all for disguise self or 1 for disguise and 1 for detect and 1 for magic missle or any other combanation.... OH and the 5e wizard gets a subclass ability. you don't see the wizard getting a MASSIVE buff here? fireballs that you had to be acerful didin't back blast, and that again took up slots not just per day but preped... if you have 2 3rd level spells and you want to be able to cast fireball in both now you can prep it once, then you had to prep it as the ONLY 3rd level spell they just used to have limiters on them. by the time you could throw a fireball most spells you throw were 50/50 the target makes there save... today at best 1/3 of the time (2 prof saves) the target keeps up with the same level you do for DC. because wizards had no hp, could not be prof in armor, or most weapons, and had to prep spells that were going to be saved against as often as not and some enemies just had a % chance to negate it... all those options came with MASSIVE restrictions. if it was a player issue why do the same players run into it in 3e/3.5 and 5e but not 2e and 4e... if it was a player issue it would come up in all 4. wrong, like I just showed... take the same group run them in 2e, 3e, 4e, and 5e you will see the issue in the two that the mechanic problem is there. (now 4e and 2e handle the solution VERY diffrent but they do both handle it) or weapon and non weapon profs my player as a 9th level fighter can not raise the dead, a cleric can. becusae the cool stuff the fighter could do were hit, have hps and shrug off spell effect... it wasn't "Oh my fighter does 20% more damage thent eh wizard" it was "My fighter deals 5x the damage of the wizard" it wasn't "My fighter had 2hp per level (+4 at 1st level) then teh wizard it was "I have double maybe tripple the hp of the wizard:" and that wizard had HUGE limits (spell known spells prep spells per day) yes. I am. (I mean I am normally more generous and assume they don't understand, the concept of the problem like you don't seem to) there is nothing a fighter can do with an ability check or skill or feat that a wizard can't do with an ability check skill or feat. [/QUOTE]
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