Fighter Build help

[BSF]

Hello everyone,
Here is the deal. A friend of mine has often complained that Fighters end up as boring characters because all they can do is fight. They don't have any interesting tactics, cool spells, nifty abilities etc. Personally, this bugs the snot out of me and I have often pointed out that he is just not approaching it correctly. The problem is, I know that I am probably part of his perception issue. In our game, my character should be one of the least useful combat characters, but I manage to get a frightening amount of use out of my little bard.

In the same game, we have a set of secondary characters to cover for the possible character death. As well, the DM has indicated that the secondary characters will eventually interesect with the story arc of our primary characters and we will have a chance to play them.

So, I am going to take my secondary fighter and bring him up to the level of our primary characters in an effort to prove that a fighter is not a boring class. I have been looking at it myself, but I admit that I look for nifty gimmicks and don't often do a straight fighter build. Maybe I need some help to maximize the options for a fighter? Instead of agonizing over it myself, I would like to see some thoughts from everyone else.

Enter Thane - my 3rd level human Fighter. I need to upgrade Thane to 17th level (Current level of our primary characters). Thane was built with die-roll and they were some pretty nice rolls. Here are his stats and feats as of 3rd level.

Str: 17
Dex: 16
Con: 16
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 8

Feats: Weapon Focus (Longsword), Dodge, Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes, Mobility.

2 1/2 years ago, I imagined Thane to be pretty quick and light on his feet. I think I want him to be a pretty competent fighter that explodes in a fury of activity. Right now, the Blooded Feat (FRCS) and Combat Sense (Portals & Planes) look a bit tasty. After all, a +11 to Init could be a bit of fun. Weapon Specialization is almost a given and the Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization look pretty good too. To take Combat Sense, I need to take QuickDraw.

I am looking for a few ideas and themes on how I can build him to have a lot of flexibility and just be fun to use in combat. A few thoughts I would like people to critique:

Power Attack/Improved Sunder - Stuff just tends to break around him.

Improved Unarmed Strike/Improved Grapple - Something to take care of those pesky wizards.

Point-blank shot/Precise shot - When a melee opponent drops, I could use thrown weapons to help someone else out until I get to move again.

I'm not entirely sure what I am looking for right now. But, a 17th level human fighter has quite a few feats to play with. I should be able to achieve a character that isn't simply a meat shield, right?

 

[Coredump]

But isn't the problem that your friend thinks fighters are boring...because they can only fight..??

If that is the case, maybe you should look at non-fighting based feats.
Plow some points into a craft. or some knowledge stats. There is a feat (somewhere) that allows you to give up other feats and get skill points.
Or pick non-fighting magic items.

Just a thought.

 

[Agent.0.Fortune]

Tell your friend Barbarians and Rangers can not only fight but have a slew of additional skills as well.

 

[Shadeus]

I think the point is the fighter has no "tricks" like rage or favored enemy like other front-line classes. I personally have been partial to the combat expertise chain of feats. You might consider combat expertise, improved trip, and improved disarm. But that means either a headband of intellect, or sacrifice a precious ability score point toward Int.

Dump your stat increases into Strength (20) and one into Int (13). Grab a belt of giant strength +6, some mithril full plate +5 and a nifty +5 heavy shield too. That will give you an AC of 33 without rings of protection or amulets of natural armor.

Disarm:

At 17th-level, you'd have a +17 (BAB) + 8 (str) + 2 (GrWF) + 5 (enhancement) + 4 (Imp. Disarm) = +36 to disarm attempts. You will be hard to beat. Add in a heavy flail and you get another +6 to that.

Trip:

You'll make the touch attack, no problem. The trip will be tricky though because you will only have a +12 bonus. It's not certain you'll make the trip attack. But trip combined with power attack is a good combo. (Remember the +4 to hit a prone foe.)

 

[BSF]

Heh - he plays a Ranger. One of these conversations came up after he realized his Ranger would lose Polymorph in the 3.5 conversion. For whatever reason, he equates cool tricks with interesting characters. He is afraid of being relegated to the role of the good archer that can kill things well. I pointed out that he is playing a Ranger and his complaint is about as valid as me complaining that my (High Cha, high social skill) bard is simply relegated to the role of being the Social Character of the party.

He has also complained that after 4th level, there is nothing interesting to do with a fighter build. (His secondary started as a fighter too - go figure.)

Coredump - I have no problems with taking a multitude of skills. Nor with creating an interesting character. My Bard has 29 skills with ranks allotted. Since I have ignored this character for 2+ years, I have no real feel for his fighting style. I am looking for ideas on what I can build around that.

My basic premise is that a fighter can make an interesting character. Personality is whatever you invest into the character. Skills/feats/gimmicks all help bring out your personality and make the character interesting and rich. I know this. But, I am guilty of looking for quick gimmicks in my PC's and my NPC's. I built a 3.0 Sorceror/Fighter just to get the haste/true strike/Power Attack/Improved Sunder gimmick to scare the bejeezus out of my players that had made magic swords. That is a gimmick, not a fighter.

 

[BSF]

Shadeus, I was wondering about going that route. I like Trip. Do you think Improved Disarm is a better choice than Improved Sunder? Combat Expertise might be a nice way to buff AC as well.

What feats might be fun outside of the Core books? I can talk my DM into most reasonable things. As well, I need to grow my library a bit more, so if it is a book I don't have, that's fine.

 

[Darklone]

Kalamars Players Guide... the 3.5 updates are available now (by yours truely). Have a look at some nice ram, shieldspecialisation and immovability feats... What about TWF style with sword&board? Tumble crossclass for crazy AC values fighting defensively with shield and Expertise??

Expert Tactician is a must with your Dex. Carry a polearm and as soon as your enemies close, drop it and go sword&shield.

Edit: If you take throwing weapons along, don´t forget that TWF helps for an additional attack.Take Far Shot for throwing fun. Rapid Shot might help as well. Light shields allow you to carry something in the left hand, kewl potions of alchemist fire... whatever.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

As a 17th level human fighter, you have access to 6 feats from levels, one bonus human feat, and 9 fighter bonus feats. That's enough for a lot of flexibility.

With these starting stats

Str: 17
Dex: 16
Con: 16
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 8

Feats: Weapon Focus (Longsword), Dodge, Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes, Mobility.

I'd do a few things.
1. Stat increases. If you think he might make 20th level soon, put all the stat increases into strength for a 21. (You'll use a headband to qualify for Combat Expertise). However, otherwise, put 3 into strength and one into int to qualify for combat expertise.

2. You want to be a light and mobile fighter.

Equipment: +5 ghost touch mithral breastplate, +4 gloves of dexterity, +6 belt of giant strength, +5 heavy shield of moderate fortification, +5 vest of Resistance, cloak of minor displacement or wings of flying, Winged boots, boots of speed, or boots of striding and springing (to go with spring attack), Stone of Good luck, +5 adamantine (or cold iron) Holy Evil outsider bane Longsword, +1 cold iron armor spikes, locking gauntlet, Ioun stone that grants a +1 insight bonus to AC, +5 ring of protection, +6 amulet of health.

That gives you an AC of 38 before barkskin or any similar buffs or using combat expertise. (It's 39+ with dodge). If you want more, you could go for +5 defending Armor Spikes and pick up the TWF feat at some point (and take -2 to hit for TWF while plunking all of your armor spike bonus to AC--heck, you could even use that attack for a trip to get some benefit out of your off-hand attack) but I think that's rather cheesy.

Feats: (I'm assuming non-core books are available here).

1. WF Longsword, Dodge, Imp Init
2. Combat Reflexes
3. Mobility
4. WS: Longsword
6. Spring Attack, Elusive Target (Complete Warrior)
8: Gr WF: Longsword
9: Combat Expertise
10: Close Quarters Fighting (Complete Warrior/Sword and Fist)
12: Iron Will, Gr WS: Longsword
14: Imp Disarm
15: Imp Trip
16: Power Attack

Feats to potentially replace:
1. Iron Will (Will save is important, but with a good wisdom and a +5 resistance item, you might get by without it).
2. Close Quarters Fighting (Imp Grab is a way for baddies to shut your character down--you have a good defense against it with this feat but you could take your chances)
3. Spring Attack (It's good to be able to stick and move (especially against creatures with a devastating full attack
4. Imp Disarm (Only useful against foes who use weapons (and they're generally vulnerable to trips)

Other feat possibilities:
1. Sunder+Combat Brute (Complete Warrior--this would let you sunder your foes' weapons and cleave through to strike them--removing the opportunity cost of a sunder attempt)
2. Blindfight (good in darkness (duh), against invisible foes, and when you close or avert your eyes to smack foes who have gaze attacks).
3. Whirlwind Attack (Useful if you find yourself at close quarters with a lot of weak foes on a semi-regular basis).
4. Cleave+Great Cleave (Generally a better way of taking out multiple weak foes than whirlwind attack but would require more feat expenditure for you (since you've got the spring attack and combat expertise feat chains for other reasons).
5. Imp Crit: Longsword. In 3.5, you could just get a keen longsword instead now that they don't stack but if you want a blessed sword (BoED) or use some other method of getting Bless Weapon, it's the best way to get lots of criticals.

If you want to really focus on trips and disarms, you could switch from a longsword to a light flail.

A few other things to observe: Imp Trip and spring attack work together rather nicely (although not as nicely as if you were using a reach weapon) since you can move, [trip] attack, take the free attack, and then keep moving. After taking an MeA to stand, your foe will be unable to get close enough to attack you. (If you had a reach weapon, you could do that and still take the AoO when he stands up--provided you were enlarged or otherwise had more than 10' reach).

 

[BSF]

Ooh, Improved Trip w/ Spring Attack & Mobility could be an interesting way to try to reach the second rank and threaten a spellcaster. Might not be a wise decision, but I have a feeling that Thane is someone willing to take wild risks.

 

[Shadeus]

Shadeus, I was wondering about going that route. I like Trip. Do you think Improved Disarm is a better choice than Improved Sunder? Combat Expertise might be a nice way to buff AC as well.

What feats might be fun outside of the Core books? I can talk my DM into most reasonable things. As well, I need to grow my library a bit more, so if it is a book I don't have, that's fine.

Well, that depends. Disarm can be very easy when you are fighting a non-fighter type class (anything without the good BAB progression). It starts to get tricky when you fight a barbarian for instance who will likely have greataxe (so he gets the +4 for being two handed) who will likely have a higher strength. So then it comes down to the d20. Of course, it depends on the campaign. If magic is rare or most NPCs only have one weapon, it is a great tactic. But if you disarm someone and they just pull out the spare +4 sword, that kind of sucks for you.

And of course disarm doesn't work too well against dragons or any creature without weapons.

Sunder is really a good option if you have an adamantine weapon. Then you can cut through that hardness easily. Plus with sundering, now you have a broken weapon...what good is that! Better to just take it from them.

As for other feats:

Improved Combat Expertise (CW: full BAB to AC)
Blind Fighting (miss chances are horrible for fighters)
Resounding Blow: (BoED: save or be dazed on a crit)
Quell the Profane: (BoED (exalted feat): against evil, save or lose 1d4+1 Str)

There's one more that would be very good for this PC. It's a tactical feat from Complete Warrior that has Dodge and Mobility as prereqs called Elusive Target. Some of the nice abilities include ducking out of the way of a flank to let the one flanker attack the other; avoiding power attack damage; if you move out of someone's reach and they miss on the AoO, you get a free trip attack against them.