This confusion seems to be a theme here, but it seems pretty clear that the position people are holding is that they are unthreatening dunces only good as meat sheilds *because* they have little ability at changing outcomes. *And* that they aren't actually very good at this role. I can't see how this is inconsistent.
If they are no good at meat shields in your game world yet are attacked ever the DM is cutting the casters breaks.
Never? Strong word. I've played under some very fair DMs and consistently seen this issue. In addition to that - fly? Caster dependant. Teleport? Caster dependant. From items? Who made those items? Casters.
LOL. Thats like saying 'commoner' npc classes with max ranks in bookbinding or craft (holy symbol) are the most powerful things as casters rely on them. Facts: the system assumes treasure, money, wealth limits, MAGIC ITEMS.
I detect a recurring theme. Warriors in games that have house rules where treasure is lacking and magic is made exclusive are weak. I will reiterate that don't doubt this.
Or are simply not as good at their role as another class could be. They can make reasonable meat shields/damage sources - I don't think anyone is arguing against this. The issue is that they are less effective at this than other classes (or class features, in degenerate cases) are and at sufficiently high level the whole "meat shield" role becomes irrelevant.
Well made tactical minded fighters are as hard to beat at 1 st as 20 th. 200 dam is not just reasonable. No other class can out fight (melle/ranged) a well made fighter with equipment going toe to toe in my experience.
Or that the fighters are doing their best to act as tank and failing, or the DM is allowing the fighter to shine by focussing on what strengths they do have. Note what you are describing is a *fighter* friendly world (from the players point of view) - its easy enough to build opponents that can ignore the fighter pretty much entirely.
Its not a fighter friendly world... the DMs guide states what it states, logic dictates cause and effect. With magical equipment the fighter isn't so easily locked down, even when they are they can survive.. unlike casters who are softer. The fact casters aren't equally locked down indicates DMing that focuses on lockin one and not the other.
Then you have failed to understand what a balanced system consists of. Ideally, it means that you are forced to use wits and strategy to defeat your opponents rather than just pressing your "I Win" button over and over again.
You misinterpret my statement. I said exactly this but it applies to casters not warriors as much: casters HAVE and I win button (easily negated and chancy as it might be) where as warriors need wits and strategy and slog to win.
In a system of equality tactics and strategy (which depend on discrepancies in strength and power and the behaviour that leads to) are less a creative intelegent effort and more a mere allocation.
I really have no idea what you are getting at here? That balance somehow inhibits roleplay? Go google WUSHU. Thats a (by definition) perfectly balanced system.
Just saying balance is achieved by dice and a cup.. why people want that as a hobby is curious to me. Thanks for the WUSHU heads up I will track a copy down but from what I have gathered its dependant on social interactions with other people... claiming that makes it balanced is drawing a long bow indeed.
Indeed, its a fine game.
Indeed
Uh, no. Thats all a) massively campaign dependant and b) not somthing that rogues or fighters are particularly good at. Making friends? Gathering information? Meet Charm Person and Scry. And Augury. And everything along those lines. What you are talking about can be done by *any* characters - just the casters can be better at it. Oh, and they have the *option* of making items instead if they feel like it. Like if you are in the wilderness and have no-one to talk to.
Thats sort of it. Making friends (just like comming up with ideas, talking wittily etc) in games is RARELY limited by the DM to your stats. Why should spending 2 mths making contacts. Yes any can do it but it needs time and a mental onerous to do so, things most casters lack. Like fighting.. everyone can swing a dagger but because fighters focus on it they get good BAB, a player that focuses on socialising gains a story award in different currency: contacts. this insistance all rewards need to be paid in the same currency is narrow. Money is just a different form of experience tokens, story efforts get story tokens, a killin gets xp.
In the wilderness casters are probably not making items.
Wilderness. If your taking time go back to town or come up with a creative use of your time... thats the game, I don't have enough silver spoons to feed every situations possible perks or resolutions.
So, having spells makes you unable to solve problems in an inventive manner? Being a wizard (the archetypical high Int class) makes you less creative than than a fighter (the archtypical low Int class)? I mean, sure - for some problems you just throw a spell at it and brute force the issue, but you are capable of just as much player cleverness as any class. Plus if you have more options on your sheet (and casters do) then you have more tools in your bag for these creative solutions.
No but do players ? Who specifies looking in a statues mouth for a latch when 'I make a search check' or 'I cast x'
Cleverness begets cleverness. Also as an aside playing warriors trains problem solving that might actually see use in your real life.... when the zombies arise!
Or you can summon monsters who want to grapple. Or you can ensure that you are never within 5ft of the fighter. Or you can use save-or-lose against the fighter rather than damage. Oh, and where's he getting that fire resist from? A caster, maybe?
Monsters that want to grapple and are on the summoning lists are never that harsh for a warrior or rogue to escape (mors an issue for fellow casters), if you cannot get close to an opponent you ain't trying or have NO equipment the game assumes you have... eguipmant like armour with the cheap addition of fire resistance.
Thing is, with divinations, powerful transport spells and so on you can arrange the conincidences to your liking. This is really the true power of casters - with the appropriate prep you can assure that the combat will almost always take place under situtations which favour you. Scry/Buff/Teleport is the most degenerate of these approaches but really getting good intel and being able to completely change the combat options you have at your disposal with eight hours notice does the trick too. You don't need the DM to give you a break because you can make your own luck. Something that fighters really can't do, at least not in a way thats available to all other characters.
Yes casters can pre-set a supprise bed room appearance if the DM allows such one way use of scry thats never countered as a matter of pride for any sensible megalomaniac and they can do all sorts of dodges a fighter needs to think and plan instead of 8hr spell turnaround his way around.
The arguement goes something like this - fighters are weak (and more damningly, rather boring) compared to full casters. The Bo9s classes are closer in power (and more importantly, in interest) to the casters, and are hence balanced with the casters, *not* the original fighter. Its not power creep because if you wanted to be more powerful you played a caster - its just expanding the number of options within the power range already established. Clearer?
