Fighters Surge, thoughts

[BobTheNob]

So we saw the fighters surge in the play test. Didnt get an all good or all bad reaction. Generally, it worked nicely to help solidify the fighters "battlefield dominance", but there were more than a few complaints about the 2/day stipulation.

1) It was a little "gamist" and fell prone to the same strange phenomina that all of a sudden the fighter (for some inexplicable reason) just couldnt surge any more (a common complaint we the use of AEDU for martial capability)
2) It was just one more thing to keep track of

So what if, instead of it being a set number per day, the use of surges was simply linked to battlefield events. For instance
* You can surge on the next action after an ally is reduced to zero or fewer HP
* You can surge in the first round when outnumbered by 2 to 1 or more
(think of more examples)

So a fighter would start with a list of conditions rather than 2 per day. Then, as he advances, the list of conditions expands, creating more potential circumstance to trigger surges (rather than increasing frequency per day)

For instance, hit level 3 gains the circumstance
* You can surge when hit for 20 or more damage from a single blow

(Ignoring the specific examples I came up with) Potential?

 

[Texicles]

I dig it!

Now, I'm a fan of 4e, and enjoy the "gameism" as mich as the RP, but I can respect that others feel differently about these things. That being said, I think your suggestion bridges the gap nicely.

Those who need a richer RP explanation for surges beyond "adrenaline rush" could be satisfied (I would think) by this, and those of us who like some nifty mechanical toys still get them.

I tip my hat sir.

 

[pemerton]

what if, instead of it being a set number per day, the use of surges was simply linked to battlefield events. For instance
* You can surge on the next action after an ally is reduced to zero or fewer HP
* You can surge in the first round when outnumbered by 2 to 1 or more
(think of more examples)

So a fighter would start with a list of conditions rather than 2 per day. Then, as he advances, the list of conditions expands, creating more potential circumstance to trigger surges (rather than increasing frequency per day)

For instance, hit level 3 gains the circumstance
* You can surge when hit for 20 or more damage from a single blow

(Ignoring the specific examples I came up with) Potential?

The conditions need to be (i) common enough that the ability comes up in play at about the right frequencye, while (ii) not so common that the fighter is just getting an automatic bonus attack, and (iii) conditions that make the extra attack highly advantageous.

Number (iii) is important, and of your three example conditions (which I know you told us to ignore!) I don't know that the 3rd satisfies it. But the first two seem like they do - get an extra attack when the ship is going down, or when you start with the odds against you.

Because, under your approach, the player is losing control over the timing (and therefore the optimisation) of surges, you might want to make them slightly stronger to compensate for the randomeness eg get advantage on your surge attack.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

There is definitely some potential in these triggers, but I think the beauty (and some say the unreasonableness) of the current rule is the flexibility - as a Fighter, you decide when to bash in an extra goblin or dish out more punishment to the chieftan.

In the recent Q&A, Mike Mearls mentioned that they were thinking about a stamina system, which might provide flexibility and reasonableness together.

 

[erleni]

I agree with Chris Nightwing. The fighter has no other ability to increase is effectiveness when stakes are high, while other classes can do that by using their most effective spells for example.
I'll let the player decide when he wants to do that and would not like a fixed condition stripping them the ability to decide when the want to surge. Imagine you see an evil wizard preparing to cast a spell on the group when everybody is already at low HP. Wouldn't you like to surge to take him down in a last desperate effort to avoid a TPK?
And honestly I don't see any gamist issue. You can do that a couple of times a day because it's a great effort that you cannot repeat all the time. It makes far more sense than vancian casting to me.

 

[Ahnehnois]

The problem with triggers is that they can't be comprehensive. The ability might be triggered when ir's not really needed, or it might not be triggered in a situation that is desperate but doesn't meet the criteria.

I think the best thing (other than getting rid of it) would be to leave it in the player's control, but use some kind of fatigue mechanic. It would be nice if the mechanics really did capture the time dilation effect of an actual adrenaline surge.

 

[erf_beto]

I'd be fine with that. I like it, it makes sense for the fighter to own the battlefield in a reactive sort of way.
That said, I agree that the "2/day" restriction feels weird, gamist and is hard to explain in game, but... OMG, it's so simple! And accomplishes the same thing, with so many fewer sentences.
Don't get me wrong, I WANT something BETTER than "2/day", but if that means adding a whole new bucket of rules (sp. conditional IF statements I have to check every time) that in the end will net the fighter around 2 surges in the adventuring day, I'm not sure the gamist approach is *that* bad...
The "2/day" approach (like most 4e game philosophy), just puts reliable power in the player's side. Having conditions to surge adds either unpredictability or just puts the decision of when to surge in the DM's hand. As an alternative, maybe, these conditions could just recharge the surges, and the player decides when to use them. Though I suppose this is still too gamist to settle the discussion...

 

[BobTheNob]

Points well taken. To be honest, the idea just entered my head. I don't think on rereading and absorbing responses that it is the best solution and there is probably bigger fish to fry in the play test materials.

Still, when you have have ideas, put em all on the board, not all will stick, but some may.

 

[Texicles]

I'm interested to see what they come up with for the fighter in the next iteration of testing, but I still think Bob might be on to something here.

At the risk of using what some think is already over-used, 2/day surges could be a baseline feature and a more polished version of this reactive concept might make for a nice modular rule.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

I tend to think that letting the player choose when to use a surge is important to giving the player a sense of control, but I agree that the bookkeeping is potentially annoying IF the fighter continues to get different "daily" abilities as he levels up.

If that's the case, I'd rather see the "fighter surge" mechanic be something like "channel divinity" for clerics: you can use a "surge" for an extra action at second level, or to do other things at higher levels. In other words, stamina points, basically.

The cool thing about a stamina system like this is that it could be modified by later class abilities to include some of the conditions mentioned. That could even be a cool way to add flexibility to the class, e.g.:

LEVEL 4, 8, 12: EXTRA SURGE: The fighter chooses from one of the following abilities, each of which can be used once per day:

Vengeance: The fighter gains an extra {surge/stamina point/whatever} when he witnesses an ally fall in combat.

Last Stand: The fighter gains an extra surge when he falls below 1/4 HP.

Battle Meditation: The fighter gains an extra surge when he spends a full round concentrating, but the surge must be used his next turn.

In the Fray: The fighter gains an extra surge when he is adjacent to more than two enemies at the same time.

Bloodlust: The fighter gains an extra surge when he critically hits an enemy.