Starbuck_II
Explorer
Have you considered Shivering Touch? Dragons without Dex are helpless.
"I can has Coup De Gra time, yes?"
"I can has Coup De Gra time, yes?"
Fighting a Red Dragon
- Thread starter Graybeard
- Start date
Graybeard
Explorer
Thanks for all the replies so far.
My DM has informed me it is to be a one on one encounter. The dragon is either a mature adult or an old dragon. All he has said is that the dragon is about 400 yrs old give or take a couple of decades.
My current 2 7th level spells known are Greater Teleport and Aspect of a Silver Dragon (a variation of the spell Aspect of the Platinum Dragon from Dragon Magic). I do have Greater Dispel, Greater Invis., and Displacement and my saves aren't too bad since I have the spell Superior Resistance (my DM allowed it as a self only spell). I have a rod of lesser empower and a rod of energy sub (cold).
Hope this helps.
My DM has informed me it is to be a one on one encounter. The dragon is either a mature adult or an old dragon. All he has said is that the dragon is about 400 yrs old give or take a couple of decades.
My current 2 7th level spells known are Greater Teleport and Aspect of a Silver Dragon (a variation of the spell Aspect of the Platinum Dragon from Dragon Magic). I do have Greater Dispel, Greater Invis., and Displacement and my saves aren't too bad since I have the spell Superior Resistance (my DM allowed it as a self only spell). I have a rod of lesser empower and a rod of energy sub (cold).
Hope this helps.
It's hard to offer specific advice for the fight when you don't tell us more about your character (ability scores, spells, feats, items).
Generic suggestions:
lv7:
Limited Wish is the obvious choice.
Elemental Body (SpC) is superior to Energy Immunity (SpC) if you just want immunity to the fire breath. Watch out for the "made of fire" thing though. It could mess with invisibility.
lv8: Superior Invisibility is probably your best bet. The dragon may have True Seeing, so make sure to hit it with Greater Dispelling.
Greater Arcane Fusion (CMag) would come in handy.
Normally I'd also suggest Irresistible Dance, but I'm not sure you can capitalize on the dragon's vulnerability the same way a party could. It also requires a touch attack, which is risky.
Generic suggestions:
lv7:
Limited Wish is the obvious choice.
Elemental Body (SpC) is superior to Energy Immunity (SpC) if you just want immunity to the fire breath. Watch out for the "made of fire" thing though. It could mess with invisibility.
lv8: Superior Invisibility is probably your best bet. The dragon may have True Seeing, so make sure to hit it with Greater Dispelling.
Greater Arcane Fusion (CMag) would come in handy.
Normally I'd also suggest Irresistible Dance, but I'm not sure you can capitalize on the dragon's vulnerability the same way a party could. It also requires a touch attack, which is risky.
Starbuck_II
Explorer
He could get a scroll of Spectral hand to touch the Dragon for him.
Graybeard
Explorer
Starbuck_II, which book is Shivering Touch from?
Ability scores including items:
STR 10; DEX 14; CON 18; INT 16; WIS 10; CHA 24
Feats: Extend Spell; Draconic Heritage (Silver); Draconic Arcane Grace;
Draconic Legacy; Draconic Power; Draconic Resistance.
Other abilities gained from events in the campaign:
See invisible (1 round per level)
Arcane Sight (1 round per level)
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance (1 round per level)
These are activated via a DC against a special skill unique to my PC.
Spells Known:
0 level: Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Open\Close, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Arcane Mark
1st level: Lesser Orb of Cold, Identify, Grease, Lesser Orb of Sound, Magic Missile,
2nd level: Blindness/Deafness, Melf’s Acid Arrow, Resist Energy, Scorching Ray, See Invisibility
3rd level: Dispel Magic, Lightning Bolt, Displacement, Fireball
4th level: Dim Door, Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, Orb of Cold
5th level: Break Enchantment, Feeblemind, Cacophonic Burst, Baleful Polymorph,
6th level: Greater Dispel Magic, Superior Resistance, Disintegrate
7th level: Greater Teleport, Aspect of the Silver Dragon
8th level: Summon Monster VIII
Saves: Fort 15; REF 13; WILL 16
Hope this helps. Thanks for all the suggestions thus far. I'm looking forward to this encounter. Win or lose, it will be memorable.
Graybeard
Ability scores including items:
STR 10; DEX 14; CON 18; INT 16; WIS 10; CHA 24
Feats: Extend Spell; Draconic Heritage (Silver); Draconic Arcane Grace;
Draconic Legacy; Draconic Power; Draconic Resistance.
Other abilities gained from events in the campaign:
See invisible (1 round per level)
Arcane Sight (1 round per level)
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance (1 round per level)
These are activated via a DC against a special skill unique to my PC.
Spells Known:
0 level: Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Open\Close, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Arcane Mark
1st level: Lesser Orb of Cold, Identify, Grease, Lesser Orb of Sound, Magic Missile,
2nd level: Blindness/Deafness, Melf’s Acid Arrow, Resist Energy, Scorching Ray, See Invisibility
3rd level: Dispel Magic, Lightning Bolt, Displacement, Fireball
4th level: Dim Door, Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, Orb of Cold
5th level: Break Enchantment, Feeblemind, Cacophonic Burst, Baleful Polymorph,
6th level: Greater Dispel Magic, Superior Resistance, Disintegrate
7th level: Greater Teleport, Aspect of the Silver Dragon
8th level: Summon Monster VIII
Saves: Fort 15; REF 13; WILL 16
Hope this helps. Thanks for all the suggestions thus far. I'm looking forward to this encounter. Win or lose, it will be memorable.
Graybeard
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
Do you have any general plans on how you would go about winning? Direct damage? Pound out save-or-loses till it rolls poorly? Battlefield Control doesn't look like an option for you. Really, without the means to fight it from another plane of existence (like going ethereal + Transdimensional Spell feat), I don't see how you can survive a one-on-one. The mature red dragon is CR 18, old is CR 20. That is for a four person party, and at the "high end" of the CR scale. You have a lot of offensive spells that rely on the foe failing a fortitude save (blindness/deafness, baleful poly, disintegrate) to be meaningful at all or even work, with DC 17-25. The red dragon will have a fort save of +20 or +23, assuming he does not buff it further. These spells will be worthless.
It's breath attack will do 12 or 14d10, which will probably take off a third your health even if you save. It just doesn't look like good odds.
Someone suggested Shivering Touch, which would basically auto-win the fight (it does 3d6 dex damage, not a penalty like ray of enfeeblement). I didn't because a) it's a really broken spell and b) I was assuming you weren't able to replace any of your current spells. If your DM doesn't mind it, though, it's in Frostburn, and I suppose you could get it on a scroll even if you aren't allowed to re-do your spells known.
It's breath attack will do 12 or 14d10, which will probably take off a third your health even if you save. It just doesn't look like good odds.
Someone suggested Shivering Touch, which would basically auto-win the fight (it does 3d6 dex damage, not a penalty like ray of enfeeblement). I didn't because a) it's a really broken spell and b) I was assuming you weren't able to replace any of your current spells. If your DM doesn't mind it, though, it's in Frostburn, and I suppose you could get it on a scroll even if you aren't allowed to re-do your spells known.
Graybeard
Explorer
Shivering Touch does 3d6 Dex damage? That's pretty good. I doubt my DM would allow it but I can ask. I don't have that book handy at the moment. What level is it? If it is 6th or lower, I can replicate it using Limited Wish (which it looks like I will take for versatility).
One option I was considering is using my spell Aspect of a Silver Dragon to turn into an adult Silver dragon. I would gain the STR, DEX, and CON of the dragon along with breath weapon, +110 HP, frightful presence, natural armor, attacks, etc. I would, however, lose spellcasting ability. That is the main drawback to that plan.
Graybeard
One option I was considering is using my spell Aspect of a Silver Dragon to turn into an adult Silver dragon. I would gain the STR, DEX, and CON of the dragon along with breath weapon, +110 HP, frightful presence, natural armor, attacks, etc. I would, however, lose spellcasting ability. That is the main drawback to that plan.
Graybeard
Starbuck_II
Explorer
Frostburn. Lesser Shivering Touch does 1d6 dex damage. Shivering Touch does 3d6.
If need scrolls of it:
Cheaper to use 2-3 lesser scrolls.
What magic items do you have? They may help.
Geez, did you really say Mature or old?
300+ hps...this will be a long battle. He will have between 14-16 Reflex save so he'll fail below 50% against you I think depending on your DC.
SR about 23-24. So at 17th caster you can ignore it, 70% of time.
He seems to be huge or gargantuan:
Resist energy while useful won't be as good as a Protection from energy spell versus 1 big breath attack.
Since dragons get spellcasting he is likely to have see invisibility, but Displacement won't be nullified.
That will help to protect you from being pounded.
If your blasting spells don't work for some reason (Control spells like grease won't be as useful because he can fly), could try melee.
Ray of Enfeeblement would be good here.
If you must go melee him:
Cast Displacement, Resist fire, if it went down Superior Resistance should be up from time you wake up (a given I'd think), and then go Aspect ofr Silver Dragon
Idea:
If you get a round before combat cast Summon Monster VIII to summon 1d41+1 Huge Monstrous Spiders.
Have all of them use their web attack (keep them spead out so he can't kill them with break weapon) to entangle the dragon multiple times: their effects should overlap.
But this means he will be penalized until he breaks free of each single webbing (he will make Str check, but he waste his action if he does). Example, if you summon 4 spiders: they each web him.
He has 4 webs on him: he has to seperately break each one or stays entangled.
Entangle lowers his attack bonus, Dex bonus (thus his Reflex Saves), etc.
The spiders will die in a single breath attack so keep them far away from each over as possible so he can kill 1 at a time at most.
You could send the spiders to aid another you (raise your attack or defense) or attack the Dragon (but he will only fail poison DC on a low roll).
Idea 2:
Sting ray (2nd level in Spell Compendruim) spell lowers his AC and restrict him to a standard action or move each round: this will lower his AC if you decide to go melee or ray spell him.
Idea 3:
Shadow Spray (2nd level in Spell Compendruim)- If he fails save deals 4 Str danage and dazes for 1 round: Either way, Each round the area gets hit again until duration up.
Now, now backback if he will make save and move more than likely (small chance he will fail DC). But hey, useful if you can keep him from moving.
Idea 4:
Earthbind spell blocks his ability to fly. Granted, he'd need a lower save to fail. Something like Limited Wish to lower his saves by 7 or something.
Then suround him and him his area with Shadow Spray...he won't be able to move through you guys or fly...
He will just take the beating.
Idea 5:
Scale Weakening lowers his Natural armor (no save) by 1/3 levels (max 5)so you'd lower it by 5. This will be useful to cast before fighting him in dragon form.
Idea 6;
Can a weapon: cast infernal Wounds on the weapon: smack the dragon. He bleeds 2 hp/round, he needs a cure spell, the Heal spel, or the Heal skill to stop the bleeding.
Idea 7: Ray of Dizziness: he can take a move or standard action only (no save). Meaning he can't full attack also.
Idea 8:
Antidragon Aura (3rd level spell): protects you from dragons: luck bonus to AC and Saves from Dragons (spell, fear affect, Breeath, etc)
Idea 9:
Array Spell resistance: Gives you bonus to SR checks.
Idea 10:
Use Limited wish to emulate the 2nd level Druid spell Blinding Spittle (no save).
Idea 11:
Aura of Evasion: Gain Evasion versus Breath weapon. Useful.
Idea 12:
Stun Ray (7th level spell): Save succeed =Stunned 1 round, fail 1d4+1 rounds.
Idea 13:
Hide from Dragons is like Invisibility (not Greater, so attacking ruins it) to Dragons: they cannot by any means detect you.
My thoughts:
Level 7 spell: Arcane Spellsurge (DragMagic)
No question about it.
You can cast it as a swift action (dragonblood), and once you do, you'll almost double your firepower. Spells with a casting time of a standard action become swift actions. Spells with a casting time of 1 full round (including metamagiced spells, for a sorcerer) become standard actions.
(Note that according to the FAQ, a sorcerer has to use a full-round action to apply a metamagic feat with a rod. This means that you can use your rods to increase a spell's casting time. Extend Spell will also work of course, but probably only on spells with a duration.)
Level 8 spell: Not so easy. After finding out that you have Summon Monster VIII I want to suggest using summoned avorals as heal-bots. The problem is, they'll have to find you to heal you. Which makes Superior Invisibility less superior. If you decide that invisibility is necessary you may as well get it. It's very effective.
I'm leaning towards good ol' Mind Blank. Useful buff, can be cast in advance, and only "wastes" one of your precious Summon Monster VIII slots.
Get Greater Arcane Spellsurge to simply go nova (with cold). With two Orbs of Cold per round you might just kill the dragon before it has time to kill you. You'll still have a third spell per round for more blasting, summoning or buffs. The problem is that you'll run out of 8th level spell slots real fast.
Tactics:
I take it this is a planned battle? If so, make sure you cast every buff spell you can before starting. If possible the rest of the party should be pouring buff spells into you as well. (A cleric could get you Energy Immunity and Freedom of Movement, for example.)
Do not let the dragon full attack you. Whatever it takes. Suck up the AoO and move away (or Dimension Door as a swift action after attacking) if it's close enough to full attack you the next round. If you get grappled, dimension door away.
Don't cast miss chance spells. Risky, but the idea is to have summoned avorals keep you healthy with Lay on Hands. If the dragon uses actions to kill the avorals, you win out - you can get more with a standard action and still blast it with swift action Orbs of Cold. Once you run out of avorals and Summon Monster spells it's time for Greater Invisiblity. (The dragon will still be able to pinpoint you, so this is a bad situation.)
Cast Arcane Spellsurge right away. (You can't do that if you used Draconic Arcane Grace.)
Avorals can cast dispel magic at will, so keep them/it busy using it if you don't need healing and you suspect the dragon of still having buffs running. They can also cast magic missile and lightning bolt, but that won't do more than annoy the dragon even if they get though SR. Might make it attack them though.
The other main summoned monsters should be elementals. You can get 1d4+1 Large, 1d4 Huge, or 1 Greater. They're unlikely to do much damage, but can be in the way and annoy the dragon enough to make it waste valuable actions battering through their DR and hit points. Air Elementals have good reflex saves and can fly. Earth Elementals do more damage. You can ready an action to pop an elemental in front of the dragon as it's moving in on you, possibly forcing it to stop or fall. (Poor or Clumsy flyers need room to turn and have to maintain forward movement.)
Other than that you'll just have to keep battering it with damage spells. It should take around 5 Orbs of Cold to kill it. Watch out for Cold Resistance items as well as buffs.
Don't use Aspect of the Silver Dragon unless you're completely out of options. It's only CR 12 compared to the dragon's CR 18 or 20, and you will lose in a slugging match.
Level 7 spell: Arcane Spellsurge (DragMagic)
No question about it.
You can cast it as a swift action (dragonblood), and once you do, you'll almost double your firepower. Spells with a casting time of a standard action become swift actions. Spells with a casting time of 1 full round (including metamagiced spells, for a sorcerer) become standard actions.
(Note that according to the FAQ, a sorcerer has to use a full-round action to apply a metamagic feat with a rod. This means that you can use your rods to increase a spell's casting time. Extend Spell will also work of course, but probably only on spells with a duration.)
Level 8 spell: Not so easy. After finding out that you have Summon Monster VIII I want to suggest using summoned avorals as heal-bots. The problem is, they'll have to find you to heal you. Which makes Superior Invisibility less superior. If you decide that invisibility is necessary you may as well get it. It's very effective.
I'm leaning towards good ol' Mind Blank. Useful buff, can be cast in advance, and only "wastes" one of your precious Summon Monster VIII slots.
Get Greater Arcane Spellsurge to simply go nova (with cold). With two Orbs of Cold per round you might just kill the dragon before it has time to kill you. You'll still have a third spell per round for more blasting, summoning or buffs. The problem is that you'll run out of 8th level spell slots real fast.
Tactics:
I take it this is a planned battle? If so, make sure you cast every buff spell you can before starting. If possible the rest of the party should be pouring buff spells into you as well. (A cleric could get you Energy Immunity and Freedom of Movement, for example.)
Do not let the dragon full attack you. Whatever it takes. Suck up the AoO and move away (or Dimension Door as a swift action after attacking) if it's close enough to full attack you the next round. If you get grappled, dimension door away.
Don't cast miss chance spells. Risky, but the idea is to have summoned avorals keep you healthy with Lay on Hands. If the dragon uses actions to kill the avorals, you win out - you can get more with a standard action and still blast it with swift action Orbs of Cold. Once you run out of avorals and Summon Monster spells it's time for Greater Invisiblity. (The dragon will still be able to pinpoint you, so this is a bad situation.)
Cast Arcane Spellsurge right away. (You can't do that if you used Draconic Arcane Grace.)
Avorals can cast dispel magic at will, so keep them/it busy using it if you don't need healing and you suspect the dragon of still having buffs running. They can also cast magic missile and lightning bolt, but that won't do more than annoy the dragon even if they get though SR. Might make it attack them though.
The other main summoned monsters should be elementals. You can get 1d4+1 Large, 1d4 Huge, or 1 Greater. They're unlikely to do much damage, but can be in the way and annoy the dragon enough to make it waste valuable actions battering through their DR and hit points. Air Elementals have good reflex saves and can fly. Earth Elementals do more damage. You can ready an action to pop an elemental in front of the dragon as it's moving in on you, possibly forcing it to stop or fall. (Poor or Clumsy flyers need room to turn and have to maintain forward movement.)
Other than that you'll just have to keep battering it with damage spells. It should take around 5 Orbs of Cold to kill it. Watch out for Cold Resistance items as well as buffs.
Don't use Aspect of the Silver Dragon unless you're completely out of options. It's only CR 12 compared to the dragon's CR 18 or 20, and you will lose in a slugging match.
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