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General Tabletop Discussion
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Fighting modes, feat support and Monks
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<blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 7530203" data-attributes="member: 71699"><p>Something I like about 5e are the fairly clear fighting modes, with feat support for many of them. What I'm thinking about are fairly straightforward character options such as -</p><p></p><p><strong><u>MELEE</u></strong></p><p></p><ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Greatsword/axe + Great Weapon Master: all-out committal to melee weapon damage</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Longsword/battleaxe + Defense style + Shield Master: strong AC with reliable, mediocre melee weapon damage</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Glaive + Polearm Master: a controlling style with high melee weapon damage</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Rapier + Two-weapon-fighting style + Dual Wielder: should be beneficially trading-off AC for higher melee damage, but hindered by the feat as written (the bonus action contention)</li> </ol><p></p><p><strong><u>RANGED</u></strong></p><p></p><ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Longbow + Archery style + Sharpshooter: vicious ranged sniping, might still wear full plate</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Hand-Crossbow + Archery style + Crossbow Expert: assuming the egregious stacking with SS is avoided, possibly a suppression style with Battlemaster manoeuvres, might still wear full plate</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Eldritch Blast + Agonizing + Repelling + Lethargy: a lower damage, controlling ranged style</li> </ol><p>Out in the cold somewhat are two other approaches. What I'm thinking about are Rogue and Monk. I don't want to discuss Rogue here, but looking at Monk what players might like to see could be -</p><p></p><p><u><strong>MARTIAL ARTS</strong></u></p><p></p><ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Shortsword + Unarmed + Mobile: a kiting style that weaves through fights, and forestalls flight</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Unarmed + Special Melee Attacks + ?: a controlling style that might grapple a foe, make them prone and pin them</li> </ol><p>At present, I think from a mechanical perspective only the first martial arts style is sufficiently viable to draw attention to it relative to other options. So long as a Monk doesn't end their turn near a foe, they can deal mediocre damage fairly consistently. The contention between Flurry and Patient Defense for a character's bonus action, coupled with second tier Hit Dice and poor AC, force a choice between attack and defense which is really only solved by Mobile. This is doubled down on by ki deprivation in tier 1 and the early levels of tier 2. The Kensei Monk looks promising and quite fun, but in a way asks the Monk to play a Melee or Ranged style rather than giving them a unique style of their own! I think it would be possible to broaden martial arts (and not just for Monks) with two tweaks. First, feat support - Tavern Brawler. I feel like if any class should value this feat, it should be Monks, yet as written it is near useless to them. Perhaps the following could help?</p><p></p><p><span style="color: #0000cd"><strong>Tavern Brawler (v2)</strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #0000cd">Accustomed to rough-and-tumble fighting using whatever weapons happen to be at hand, you gain the following benefits:</span></p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #0000cd">Increase your Strength or Constitution score by 1, to a maximum of 20.</span></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #0000cd">You are proficient with improvised weapons.</span></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #0000cd">You gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with your unarmed strikes.</span></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #0000cd">You can use a bonus action on your turn for a special melee attack to grapple a creature.</span></li> </ul><p>The +2 is nearly the same as 1d4 for everyone but Monks (it is half a point better), but for Monks it lifts their Flurry damage to a level that creates a genuine decision between all-out attack and defense. Regarding the last benefit, by RAW it requires an unarmed or improvised weapon attack to hit to trigger the bonus action grapple attempt. For a Monk this forces them to use their Attack action to try to get an unarmed or improvised hit, which at lower tiers means surrendering melee damage. The tweak allows a different approach: a Monk (or any character that takes it) can choose to use their Attack action for damage, or give themselves effective advantage or trivantage by using their Attack action AND bonus action to try and grapple. Advantage here will really help out the Monk who probably maximised Dexterity and not Strength, and has no obvious means of getting Expertise Athletics. On a following turn, a Monk with Open Hand might then prone their grappled opponent, pinning them. Another tweak could be the potentially very exciting - </p><p></p><p><span style="color: #0000cd"><strong>Refocus</strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #0000cd"></span></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #0000cd">Starting at 5th level, you can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment. On your turn, you can take one additional bonus action.<br /> </span></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #0000cd">Once you use this feature, you must finish a short or long rest before you can use it again. Starting at 17th level, you can use it twice before a rest, but only once on the same turn.</span></li> </ul><p>This Monk class feature based on Action Surge, lifts them from poor or at best mediocre melee damage (relative to other fighting classes,) which I think could only be justified by stellar defenses that Monks just don't have, to a high position in the second damage tier (first tier being GWM and SS.) I think it could produce a genuine choice for Monks between going for damage, defense, or control. Note the possible combination of Attack > bonus action grapple > Flurry > Open Hand prone or Move > Attack > Flurry > Patient Defense or simply Attack > Flurry > Flurry. The egregious possibilities should be adequately constrained by the once-per-fight and ki limits.</p><p></p><p>Please use this thread for feedback about whether this could be overpowered, ways to improve it, other ways Monk might be enhanced? I'm also conscious that the fighting modes framework could be expanded on and enhanced, so anything in that direction would also be great to listen to!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="clearstream, post: 7530203, member: 71699"] Something I like about 5e are the fairly clear fighting modes, with feat support for many of them. What I'm thinking about are fairly straightforward character options such as - [B][U]MELEE[/U][/B] [LIST=1] [*]Greatsword/axe + Great Weapon Master: all-out committal to melee weapon damage [*]Longsword/battleaxe + Defense style + Shield Master: strong AC with reliable, mediocre melee weapon damage [*]Glaive + Polearm Master: a controlling style with high melee weapon damage [*]Rapier + Two-weapon-fighting style + Dual Wielder: should be beneficially trading-off AC for higher melee damage, but hindered by the feat as written (the bonus action contention) [/LIST] [B][U]RANGED[/U][/B] [LIST=1] [*]Longbow + Archery style + Sharpshooter: vicious ranged sniping, might still wear full plate [*]Hand-Crossbow + Archery style + Crossbow Expert: assuming the egregious stacking with SS is avoided, possibly a suppression style with Battlemaster manoeuvres, might still wear full plate [*]Eldritch Blast + Agonizing + Repelling + Lethargy: a lower damage, controlling ranged style [/LIST] Out in the cold somewhat are two other approaches. What I'm thinking about are Rogue and Monk. I don't want to discuss Rogue here, but looking at Monk what players might like to see could be - [U][B]MARTIAL ARTS[/B][/U] [LIST=1] [*]Shortsword + Unarmed + Mobile: a kiting style that weaves through fights, and forestalls flight [*]Unarmed + Special Melee Attacks + ?: a controlling style that might grapple a foe, make them prone and pin them [/LIST] At present, I think from a mechanical perspective only the first martial arts style is sufficiently viable to draw attention to it relative to other options. So long as a Monk doesn't end their turn near a foe, they can deal mediocre damage fairly consistently. The contention between Flurry and Patient Defense for a character's bonus action, coupled with second tier Hit Dice and poor AC, force a choice between attack and defense which is really only solved by Mobile. This is doubled down on by ki deprivation in tier 1 and the early levels of tier 2. The Kensei Monk looks promising and quite fun, but in a way asks the Monk to play a Melee or Ranged style rather than giving them a unique style of their own! I think it would be possible to broaden martial arts (and not just for Monks) with two tweaks. First, feat support - Tavern Brawler. I feel like if any class should value this feat, it should be Monks, yet as written it is near useless to them. Perhaps the following could help? [COLOR=#0000cd][B]Tavern Brawler (v2)[/B][/COLOR] [COLOR=#0000cd]Accustomed to rough-and-tumble fighting using whatever weapons happen to be at hand, you gain the following benefits:[/COLOR] [LIST] [*][COLOR=#0000cd]Increase your Strength or Constitution score by 1, to a maximum of 20.[/COLOR] [*][COLOR=#0000cd]You are proficient with improvised weapons.[/COLOR] [*][COLOR=#0000cd]You gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with your unarmed strikes.[/COLOR] [*][COLOR=#0000cd]You can use a bonus action on your turn for a special melee attack to grapple a creature.[/COLOR] [/LIST] The +2 is nearly the same as 1d4 for everyone but Monks (it is half a point better), but for Monks it lifts their Flurry damage to a level that creates a genuine decision between all-out attack and defense. Regarding the last benefit, by RAW it requires an unarmed or improvised weapon attack to hit to trigger the bonus action grapple attempt. For a Monk this forces them to use their Attack action to try to get an unarmed or improvised hit, which at lower tiers means surrendering melee damage. The tweak allows a different approach: a Monk (or any character that takes it) can choose to use their Attack action for damage, or give themselves effective advantage or trivantage by using their Attack action AND bonus action to try and grapple. Advantage here will really help out the Monk who probably maximised Dexterity and not Strength, and has no obvious means of getting Expertise Athletics. On a following turn, a Monk with Open Hand might then prone their grappled opponent, pinning them. Another tweak could be the potentially very exciting - [COLOR=#0000cd][B]Refocus[/B] [/COLOR] [LIST] [*][COLOR=#0000cd]Starting at 5th level, you can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment. On your turn, you can take one additional bonus action. [/COLOR] [*][COLOR=#0000cd]Once you use this feature, you must finish a short or long rest before you can use it again. Starting at 17th level, you can use it twice before a rest, but only once on the same turn.[/COLOR] [/LIST] This Monk class feature based on Action Surge, lifts them from poor or at best mediocre melee damage (relative to other fighting classes,) which I think could only be justified by stellar defenses that Monks just don't have, to a high position in the second damage tier (first tier being GWM and SS.) I think it could produce a genuine choice for Monks between going for damage, defense, or control. Note the possible combination of Attack > bonus action grapple > Flurry > Open Hand prone or Move > Attack > Flurry > Patient Defense or simply Attack > Flurry > Flurry. The egregious possibilities should be adequately constrained by the once-per-fight and ki limits. Please use this thread for feedback about whether this could be overpowered, ways to improve it, other ways Monk might be enhanced? I'm also conscious that the fighting modes framework could be expanded on and enhanced, so anything in that direction would also be great to listen to! [/QUOTE]
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