Fighting Styles vs Feats, which is better?

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

I was kind of doing the math on Great Weapon Fighting Style and it is really pretty pathetic IMO. RAW it is less than a +1 to damage on average effectively for d10 and d12 weapons. I am sure I will probably hear from people that this can't be true, but, sadly, it is.

I will likely change it to something like if the damage rolled is less than or equal to your proficiency bonus, you re-roll and take the new result (even if less than the proficiency bonus). In other words, in won't just be a re-roll on a 1-2, it will be on a 1-2, 1-3, 1-4, 1-5, or 1-6 depending on the character's level.

Before people start jumping up and down saying that is too much, it is unbalanced, etc., do the math. Even re-rolling 1-6, you are only adding +1.25 on average for d10 and +1.5 for d12 (hardly great, but okay I suppose).

Given the RAW, I guess Feats are just meant to be more powerful than a Fighting Style.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I was kind of doing the math on Great Weapon Fighting Style and it is really pretty pathetic IMO. RAW it is less than a +1 to damage on average effectively for d10 and d12 weapons. I am sure I will probably hear from people that this can't be true, but, sadly, it is.

Fighters are supposed to use greatswords, just like barbarians are supposed to use greataxes. You get a penalty for playing against type.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

Fighters are supposed to use greatswords, just like barbarians are supposed to use greataxes. You get a penalty for playing against type.

LOL so Fighters aren't supposed to use shields?

And that analysis includes those weapons, the greataxe doing a d12 and even the 2d6 for greatswords and mauls only raise the expected average 1.33 points. Hardly impressive for a Fighting Style, which the character only gets one of unless they multiclass or go Champion.

So, basically, I don't get your point.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

LOL so Fighters aren't supposed to use shields?

And that analysis includes those weapons, the greataxe doing a d12 and even the 2d6 for greatswords and mauls only raise the expected average 1.33 points. Hardly impressive for a Fighting Style, which the character only gets one of unless they multiclass or go Champion.

Fighters with the Great Weapon Fighting style are supposed to use greatswords rather than greataxes. It gives a greater bonus with the former than with the latter. It's still relatively terrible, compared to what archers and tanks get. My best guess is that they realized how powerful the relevant feat was, and intentionally under-powered the fighting style in order to compensate.

Personally, if I were inclined to play a fighter with a big weapon, I would still go with the Defense style. Even though +1 AC is worth less to a striker with AC 17 than to a defender with AC 19, it's still better than a trivial bonus to damage.

If I were inclined to re-design feats and class features entirely, I would fold the benefit of Power Attack into the fighting style, by letting them add their Proficiency bonus to damage with heavy weapons.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

If I were inclined to re-design feats and class features entirely, I would fold the benefit of Power Attack into the fighting style, by letting them add their Proficiency bonus to damage with heavy weapons.

Yeah, I was thinking along those lines at first, too. I get your point though, and I do think it is pretty unimpressive. Here is an option I came up with, but I know several people will nay say the AC bonus LOL.

Great Weapon Fighting: When wielding a weapon two-handed that has either the two-handed or versatile property, you gain bonuses equal to your proficiency bonus to be allocated to either the damage you inflict on a hit with the weapon or as a bonus to AC. You cannot add more than +3 to either damage or AC. If you add any bonus to AC through this Fighting Style, you cannot employ Great Weapon Master to inflict bonus damage.

The AC bonus isn't such a big deal when you consider the character can't use a shield and at mid-levels the full AC bonus means they aren't fighting aggressively and gain no bonus to damage. Even at the highest levels, they will be getting a +3 damage and +3 AC, which then isn't game breaking.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Yeah, I was thinking along those lines at first, too. I get your point though, and I do think it is pretty unimpressive. Here is an option I came up with, but I know several people will nay say the AC bonus LOL.

Great Weapon Fighting: When wielding a weapon two-handed that has either the two-handed or versatile property, you gain bonuses equal to your proficiency bonus to be allocated to either the damage you inflict on a hit with the weapon or as a bonus to AC. You cannot add more than +3 to either damage or AC. If you add any bonus to AC through this Fighting Style, you cannot employ Great Weapon Master to inflict bonus damage.

The AC bonus isn't such a big deal when you consider the character can't use a shield and at mid-levels the full AC bonus means they aren't fighting aggressively and gain no bonus to damage. Even at the highest levels, they will be getting a +3 damage and +3 AC, which then isn't game breaking.

I would have to see your changes to the other styles first, but my immediate impulse would be to take this style and keep the full bonus to AC at all times (until such point as I hit the cap, and then the extra bonus is wasted as damage). The ability to use a greatsword, while still gaining +2 to AC (later improving to +3), blows the shield and defense style out of the water.

Of course, I wouldn't take Great Weapon Master either way, so that part is no loss to me.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

I would have to see your changes to the other styles first...

Well, this is what I was thinking, and I understand it grants a LOT to the Fighting Styles but that is my intent. I am NOT planning on making any changes yet to the RAW since I need a better feel for 5E first.

Archery
You can make one attack as a bonus action. You can choose to forgo this option and instead take aim as your bonus action, granting double your proficiency bonus to the attack roll for your next shot. If you are surprised but have your weapon loaded, you may still make one attack as a reaction during the surprise round.

Defense
While wearing armor, you gain a bonus to AC equal to one-half your proficiency bonus, rounded down. You can don and doff armor twice as quickly. Donning and doffing a shield can be done either as a bonus action or reaction, instead of taking 1 action. Any time you are denied your Dex modifier because of a situation (??? held, surprised, etc. ???), you lose these benefits.

Dueling
When you are wielding a single weapon in one hand and fighting a single opponent, you gain advantage on one attack roll per turn. As a reaction, you can add your proficiency bonus to your AC against one attack from your opponent per turn. If you are engaged by more than one opponent, you gain no benefits.

Great Weapon Fighting
When wielding a weapon two-handed that has either the two-handed or versatile property, you gain bonuses equal to your proficiency bonus to be allocated to either the damage you inflict on a hit with the weapon or as a bonus to AC. You cannot add more than +3 to either damage or AC. Optional: If you add any bonus to AC through this Fighting Style, you cannot employ Great Weapon Master to inflict bonus damage.

Protection
You gain a +1 bonus to AC when using a shield. You can make an attack with your shield (1d4 damage, 1d3 if a buckler) as a bonus action. As a reaction, you can impose disadvantage on any one attack made by an opponent within 5 feet of you, including against yourself.

Two-Weapon Fighting
You add your ability modifier to damage. Your off-hand attack is now part of your normal attack action instead of being a bonus action.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Well, this is what I was thinking, and I understand it grants a LOT to the Fighting Styles but that is my intent. I am NOT planning on making any changes yet to the RAW since I need a better feel for 5E first.

Archery
You can make one attack as a bonus action. You can choose to forgo this option and instead take aim as your bonus action, granting double your proficiency bonus to the attack roll for your next shot. If you are surprised but have your weapon loaded, you may still make one attack as a reaction during the surprise round.

Defense
While wearing armor, you gain a bonus to AC equal to one-half your proficiency bonus, rounded down. You can don and doff armor twice as quickly. Donning and doffing a shield can be done either as a bonus action or reaction, instead of taking 1 action. Any time you are denied your Dex modifier because of a situation (??? held, surprised, etc. ???), you lose these benefits.

Dueling
When you are wielding a single weapon in one hand and fighting a single opponent, you gain advantage on one attack roll per turn. As a reaction, you can add your proficiency bonus to your AC against one attack from your opponent per turn. If you are engaged by more than one opponent, you gain no benefits.

Great Weapon Fighting
When wielding a weapon two-handed that has either the two-handed or versatile property, you gain bonuses equal to your proficiency bonus to be allocated to either the damage you inflict on a hit with the weapon or as a bonus to AC. You cannot add more than +3 to either damage or AC. Optional: If you add any bonus to AC through this Fighting Style, you cannot employ Great Weapon Master to inflict bonus damage.

Protection
You gain a +1 bonus to AC when using a shield. You can make an attack with your shield (1d4 damage, 1d3 if a buckler) as a bonus action. As a reaction, you can impose disadvantage on any one attack made by an opponent within 5 feet of you, including against yourself.

Two-Weapon Fighting
You add your ability modifier to damage. Your off-hand attack is now part of your normal attack action instead of being a bonus action.

I see lots of 1 level fighter dips in the future.

 

[FrogReaver]

I see lots of 1 level fighter dips in the future.

Maybe he doesn't allow multiclassing?

 

[guachi]

I was kind of doing the math on Great Weapon Fighting Style and it is really pretty pathetic IMO. RAW it is less than a +1 to damage on average effectively for d10 and d12 weapons. I am sure I will probably hear from people that this can't be true, but, sadly, it is.

I will likely change it to something like if the damage rolled is less than or equal to your proficiency bonus, you re-roll and take the new result (even if less than the proficiency bonus). In other words, in won't just be a re-roll on a 1-2, it will be on a 1-2, 1-3, 1-4, 1-5, or 1-6 depending on the character's level.

Before people start jumping up and down saying that is too much, it is unbalanced, etc., do the math. Even re-rolling 1-6, you are only adding +1.25 on average for d10 and +1.5 for d12 (hardly great, but okay I suppose).

Given the RAW, I guess Feats are just meant to be more powerful than a Fighting Style.

Most of us here did the math four years ago. So, no, you won't be hearing from the math-aware that this can't be true.

2d6 reroll 1s and 2s give four possible results that grant rerolls. If you do the same for 1d10 or 1d12 weapons (that is, reroll on a 1-4), the damage boost is similar. The boost for 2d6 rerolling is 1.33 so a boost of 1.2 (for 1d10 reroll 1-4) or 1.33 (for 1d12) is right in the ballpark.

I can see why the rule is what it is, because it's simpler than having different rules for different weapons.