Figment magic

[Particle_Man]

One house rule I have toyed with is that, for figments and glamours, saving throws do not make the illusions "see through" but only allows one to know that they are, in fact, illusions. So an illusion of a wall, even if known to be an illusion, would still provide concealment. However, this would work both ways, for everyone (except the caster in the case of Glamours (but not even the caster in the case of figments)).

But its just an idea. Another is to add the illusion caster's spellcraft or bluff check to the DC of other's spellcraft check to identify a spell as an illusion at all, rather than something "appropriate" (conjuration, evocation, or no spell at all, the wizard was blowing his nose, etc.)

 

[iwatt]

Aha! I both agree and disagree with the sword through the wall business. Here's how I think that works:

Figments don't affect your senses, at least not in the same way that a glamer or phantasm would. Rather, figments create a false image of a thing. That's a subtle but important difference. So when it comes to running a sword through an illusionary wall, yes, the observer can do so. He sees the wall and he sees his sword pass through the wall without hindrance, and he can do this automatically if the wall isn't avoiding the sword (it might--this IS D&D).

I'm pretty sure your interpertation is strictly correct according to the RAW. But my fantasy reading has made me a believer that illusion is really powerful and I want to illustrate that IMC. That's why I rule that you phisically can't interact with something and automatically disbeliev it. Trying to run your sword through an ilussory wall. Will save +4. If you fail, you can't "force" yourself into breaching the wall. Now getting bull rushed through would make it obvious the wall is not there.... automatic disbelief.

I know this steps into the toes of what a glamer and figment exactly do. But I have no problem House ruling into into my satisfaction

 

[Nail]

One house rule I have toyed with is that, for figments and glamours, saving throws do not make the illusions "see through" but only allows one to know that they are, in fact, illusions.

I've thought about this too.

At this stage (RAW), there are figments that do this. Look at Mirror Image. Although you know it's an illusion, you can't see through it.

So, really, all you're talking about is removing the "Saving Throw: Will disbelief " line for all figments.

 

[Gwarok]

If you interpret Illusions and especially glamours to be merely holograms then I feel you are giving the entire school a big shaft. If proving your illusion wall is fake was as easy as sticking your sword thru it, you wouldn't need a will save, you'd just tell your DM thats what your doing and move on.

In my campaign you fail your will save the illusionist has gotten inside your head. You stick your sword at the wall, and even though it passes thru unopposed, you believe that it rebounded off solid rock. And I expect my characters to react accordingly. IMO illusion and enchantment/charm selections get so hamstrung already by combat game mechanics that they are really not magic at all anymore. I think Suggestionj/Charm lines should be stilled and silent automatically. I mean, they are supposed to be subtle manipulative spells and you have go waving your arms and incanting? Never made much sense to me. I mean, maybe if you get someone alone and pretty much get the drop on them already but otherwise it seemed like there was rarely a good time to use it.

 

[Particle_Man]

Well, if you are feeling REALLY ambitious, you could rework spells to have both types of illusions. Let figments be undispellable by disbelief (but ignorable, and stick-a-sword-througable), let the phantasms (the mind-affecting stuff) be "mass hallucinations" (dispellable (for that person) by disbelief, but if not disbelieved already, not ignorable, and not stick-a-sword-throughable). Thus you could have Silent Image/Minor Image/Major Image on the one hand (figment holograms), and Lesser Phantasmal Force/Phantasmal Force/Improved Phantasmal Force/Greater Phantasmal Force/Lesser Spectral Force/Spectral Force/Improved Spectral Force/Greater Spectral Force on the other (mass hallucinations that you can't stick a sword through).

Frankly, I think the whole illusions spell school needs an overhaul. It has been neglected for too long.

 

[Zen]

While I agree that the ins-and-outs of illusion magic could be more clearly explained in the rule books, I'm not so certain that the silent, minor and major image spells are underpowered. The idea that everything created by these spells is believed to be real until investigated is a powerful thing. A good illusion can get an entire army of opponents looking in the wrong direction, and could also fool many of these enemies into wasting their actions ("I poke the wall with my sword" would be such an action). And while it may take some foresight to get good mileage out of a figment than a more direct spell, these spells do have a flexibility that few other spells can match.

I would very much like to see a satisfying illusionist class or even prc --one that allows for spontaneous casting of the Image spells, and allows the DC for those spells to increase with level would be good. I have looked at the School of Illusion accessory and wasn't that impressed with the approach- many of the new illusion spells offered caused damage, which seemed to me to be changing the nature of the school.