Figurines of Wondrous Power & actions?

[CapnZapp]

Every action it takes costs
you a minor action (which you use to issue commands),
and a conjured creature cannot exceed its normal
allotment of actions (a standard, a move, and a minor
action) during its turn. If you spend no minor actions
on your turn to command the creature, it remains
where it is without taking any actions on its turn.

There have been considerable discussion around the new model for ally actions (notably ranger animal companions).

Now, I'm a bit confused on how it works for these figurines.

So I must spend a minor action for each action taken by the figurine.

But does this mean I can spend only one minor action on the figurine, and use that for its standard action?

In other words, do I get to take a standard action myself the same round my figurine is taking its standard action?

Obviously, I'm hoping for a "yes".

That would make these figurines much more desirable... especially for the purpose I have in mind*!


Regards,
Zapp

*) I have a BBEG who is a solo. I was thinking it would be a great fresh take if this character got more actions not by having more monsters to boss around (like just about every other BBEG), but by activating a few figurines!

This would be especially neat considering how a solo's healing surges normally go to waste. If used when activating a figurine, they get a very healthy hit point boots by virtue of solos having much more hit points than player characters!

 

[hafrogman]

Basically you get one minor a round, which you can use to direct the figure.
You can also sell down your move or standard actions to minors for additional actions by the same figurine.

So, you still only get three total actions, but now they can be split more ways. So, yes. You can spend your minor for the figurine to attack (a standard), and then spend your own standard action to attack, and still have a move action left over.

But you can't spend your minor and your move to have the figurine attack twice, because that breaks it's own per round limit.

 

[CapnZapp]

Thanks, that's what I thought too.

However, what you said made me realize something...

Basically you get one minor a round, which you can use to direct the figure.
You can also sell down your move or standard actions to minors for additional actions by the same figurine.

<snip>

But you can't spend your minor and your move to have the figurine attack twice, because that breaks it's own per round limit.

...you get an incredibly bad deal on making the figurine take more than one action! Essentially:

* Your minor action buys the fig a standard action. This is a good deal; one which you'll be using all the time
* Your move action buys the fig a move action. Okay, I guess. When the fig needs to move, it has to move.
* Your standard action buys the fig a minor action. Now this is a raw deal if I ever saw one. For the price of sacrificing your entire attack, the fig gets what? A minor action! That is rough!

 

[Mort_Q]

You can look at it exactly the other way.

Your standard buys it a standard.
Your move buys it a move.
Your minor buys it a minor.

Not as good as the rangers beast, but... so?

 

[CapnZapp]

You can look at it exactly the other way.

Your standard buys it a standard.
Your move buys it a move.
Your minor buys it a minor.

Not as good as the rangers beast, but... so?

But why would you?

I mean, is this how you feel the rules work, or is it just your suggestion on how to make the "currency exchange" look better?

If the latter, yes, you could look at it this way, but it would still be much better to spend your minor for the fig's standard (even though this sets you up for the spectacularly raw deal if you then need the fig to perform all three of its action allowance).

I should also probably add that I'm not really upset by this "raw deal". After all, it will nearly never happen in practice. It was just a theoretical observation. Cheers!

 

[Engilbrand]

Basically, you can have your BBEG stand and fight the enemies, while he uses his Move and Minor actions to cause his Figurine to Move and Attack. When you want him to move and attack, just have the Figurine stand in place and attack. It's not really a raw deal. It's a good time. I've seen a Figurine put to good use, and I look forward to getting one at some point.

 

[Mort_Q]

I mean, is this how you feel the rules work, or is it just your suggestion on how to make the "currency exchange" look better?

The latter. Effectively, at worst, you and the figurine share the same pool of actions. Seems reasonable for an item.

 

[CapnZapp]

Basically, you can have your BBEG stand and fight the enemies, while he uses his Move and Minor actions to cause his Figurine to Move and Attack. When you want him to move and attack, just have the Figurine stand in place and attack. It's not really a raw deal. It's a good time. I've seen a Figurine put to good use, and I look forward to getting one at some point.

The latter. Effectively, at worst, you and the figurine share the same pool of actions. Seems reasonable for an item.

I think we are in agreement.

I just expressed wonder at how this rule plays out in the (rare few) cases where you actually need your fig to take that third action.

Let's say a move action is ten times more valuable than a minor action, and a standard action is ten times more valuable than a move action (for illustration purposes*).

That means for your first action, you're paying 1 and getting a 100.
But for your last action, you're paying 100 and only getting 1.

This means that even if the least valuable action is a hundred times less valuable than the most; the exchange rate we're getting will differ ten thousand times!

Again, I'm not complaining here - just expressing my awe at the different deals you're getting here. Talk about diminishing returns!


*) I really don't want to discuss the true relative values of the three kinds of actions. I'm sure it's much less than a factor of ten. I just needed to put numbers to my picture, that's all...

 

[HarbingerX]

One of my players has the Onxy Dog and no one has any complaints about the expense of the minor action because there isn't really anything the Onxy Dog could do with a minor action (maybe pick up an item).

So at the table what we normally see in actions is this:

• Standard (PC), Standard (Figurine), Move (Figurine)
• Move (PC), Standard (PC), Standard (Figurine)

So in practical terms what the Figurine does is let the PC boost his Minor action to a Standard action, which is pretty sweet.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, one of the PCs in my campaign has an Onyx Dog too. I see the same thing happening. It is a bit unusual that they let it violate economy of actions, but then again the figurines are VERY weak melee combatants. Hardly better than a minion. Even with the HS option they don't survive more than about 2 hits. Great for flanking, but that's about it. My players mostly save it for guarding the camp at night.