Filling out the missing dinosaurs

[Couatl]

I noticed a distinct lack of 'raptors in the 5E MM. Here are two, one 'realistic' and one Jurassic Park-style.

I'm uncertain as to the CRs on these. I'm confused, because the DMG guidelines on page 273 and on don't seem to line up with the monsters in the MM, especially in terms of number of hit points for low-CR monsters.

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Velociraptor
Small beast, unaligned
Armor Class 13 (natural armor)
Hit Points 9 (2d6+2)
Speed 50 ft.

STR 8 (-1) DEX 15 (+2) CON 12 (+1) INT 2 (-4) WIS 12 (+1) CHA 6 (-2)

Skills Perception +3
Senses passive Perception 13
Languages -
Challenge 1/4 (50 XP)

Keen Sight. The velociraptor has advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.

Actions

Leaping Slash. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: 4 (1d4+2) piercing damage. If the target is a creature, it must succeed on a DC 9 Strength saving throw or be knocked prone.

Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d6+2) piercing damage.

--

Raptor

Medium beast, unaligned
Armor Class 14 (natural armor)
Hit Points 39 (6d8+12)
Speed 60 ft.

STR 15 (+2) DEX 16 (+3) CON 14 (+2) INT 3 (-4) WIS 14 (+2) CHA 7 (-2)

Saving Throws Dexterity +5
Skills Perception +4, Stealth +5
Senses passive Perception 14
Languages -
Challenge 2 (450 XP)

Keen Sight. The raptor has advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.

Pack Tactics. The raptor has advantage on attack rolls against a creature if at least one of the raptor’s allies is within 5 feet of the creature and the ally isn’t incapacitated.

Lethal Blur. The raptor can Dash as a bonus action.

Actions

Multiattack. The raptor makes a Bite attack and a Claw attack.

Claw. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 6 (1d6+3) slashing damage.

Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 7 (1d8+3) piercing damage.

Leaping Slash. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: 12 (2d8+3) slashing damage. If the target is a creature, it must succeed on a DC 12 Strength saving throw or be knocked prone.

 

[Redthistle]

First of all, I like and appreciate your work on these.

About the calculation of CR, I share your frustrations. In the "good ol' days" (cue the sarcastic laughter) XP took the role that CR does now. Lots of XP simply equaled Tough Monster.

CR, which takes into account a more complicated balancing of a creature's various attacks, defenses, and other relevant factors, tends to prompt occasions of brain-bruising "How the *%@# do the RAI for this creature lead to an accurate CR?". XP have become just a subset of CR.

First thing I do is to look for similar creatures in the MM, using those as a model for the Challenge Rating.

Two other options are to peruse online forums for discussions on the topic to see what solutions and/or suggestions have been proposed by other gamers, or to invite some friends to get together to play-test your creations against pre-gen characters of appropriate level to help assess what the CR should be.

About your beasties:

Claw Jump.
1) It might be good to add a size qualifier. Since the velociraptor is defined as a Small creature, a change in wording such as "If the target is a creature of Medium or smaller size, ...".
2) "Claw Jump", imho, seems to be a kind of clunky way of saying "Pounce".

Claw Kick.
1) Same issue about size, although in this case the wording should include "... Large or smaller size ...".
2) Again, it's imho, but either "Clawed Kick" or "Savage Kick" sound a bit better to my judgmental ear.

For both velociraptors and raptors, my conception of them has been largely shaped by the Jurassic Park/World movies, so Keen Sight being specific to sight makes sense. Remembering those mercenaries in the tall grass being taken down can still send a chill down my spine and raise those short hairs.

Thank you for your offerings here.

 

[cmad1977]

What about the indominus Rex??


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[Xeviat]

The DMG guidelines have a step where you determine the offensive CR and he defensive CR and then average them. For reasons of fun, most monsters I've checked tend to have higher offensive CR than defensive CR. Why is this fun? Players hate to miss and be hit, so low AC and low Attack scores are "fun", but they need to be scared so high damage is exciting.

You can use the DMG system to determine be CR of something you just made, or you can make something following the guidelines. I can't run the test now for you, but I can do it tonight of no or else does it by then.

They look like good representations of Velociraptor and deinonychus (what the Jurassic Park velociraptor was based on; Crichton just liked the velociraptor name more).

The only thing I would add would be a written "grab" on the bite for the velociraptor. You made the bite basically the same damage as the claw jump, which means it has less value. I can imagine a group of them working together to hold something still while others jump on it and bring it down. Now, a DM is more than able to use the grab action with any monster (I did it with a hydra in a marsh to good drowning effect).

Why did you choose to not use the Tiger's pounce? Did you just want to do things different? "Run, claw, save or prone, free bite" seems just like a raptor to me.


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[Couatl]

First thing I do is to look for similar creatures in the MM, using those as a model for the Challenge Rating.

Yeah, I did that. The stats are very similar to (and based off of) the wolf at CR 1/4.

Two other options are to peruse online forums for discussions on the topic to see what solutions and/or suggestions have been proposed by other gamers, or to invite some friends to get together to play-test your creations against pre-gen characters of appropriate level to help assess what the CR should be.

We did do an experimental fight. The velociraptors did more damage than I expected, but that's probably largely because I rolled well.

So I was undecided between 1/4 and 1/2.

About your beasties:

Claw Jump.
1) It might be good to add a size qualifier. Since the velociraptor is defined as a Small creature, a change in wording such as "If the target is a creature of Medium or smaller size, ...".

A very good point. Will do.

2) "Claw Jump", imho, seems to be a kind of clunky way of saying "Pounce".

Yeah, but Pounce is an existing ability some monsters have, and I didn't want to either give this creature that (with the ability to make an extra attack in the same round) or reuse the name.

I could call it Leaping Slash or something though.

2) Again, it's imho, but either "Clawed Kick" or "Savage Kick" sound a bit better to my judgmental ear.

Good point.

 

[Redthistle]

Looks like I was preaching to the choir.

Mentioning that you'd used the MM wolf to guide your velociraptor development nudged a memory off of an old, dusty shelf in my brain. It doesn't apply directly to this thread, but years ago someone in something I'd read (so much for accurate accreditation) mentioned how players in the group had gotten to know particular monster-types so well that they'd become practiced and jaded whenever those critters showed up again.

So he re-skinned them by using a different monster's stats and abilities. Nothing so drastic as turning a goblin into gibbering mouther, say, but enough to shake things up and get the players worrying again.

Although, now that I think about it, that goblin/gibbering mouther would be a nice lead-in to a Far Realms adventure ... or just another day in a Pathfinder game.

 

[Couatl]

So he re-skinned them by using a different monster's stats and abilities.

Yeah, there's an old GURPS book that suggests creating alien creatures by taking the stats for a regular animal and describing it differently... I think the example is using saber-toothed tiger stats for giant predatory purple lizards, or something.

 

[Xeviat]

Velociraptor

Defensive CR
HP: 9 (CR 1/8); AC 13 (base); CR 1/8
Offensive CR
Damage: 6 (CR ½); Atk +5 (+1); CR 1

You’ve split the difference between a CR ¼ and a CR ½. Decide where you want it to go, then buff it or nerf it (or leave it as CR ¼ and reduce the bite damage to 1d4+3 and it will fall right into CR ¼; you want it to be a ranger companion choice, after all.) The “knock prone on hit” effect doesn’t end up going into the calculator, even though I think it should, but that’s a discussion for a different day.

Raptor

Defensive CR
HP 39 (CR ¼); AC 14 (+1/2): CR ¼+
Offensive CR
Damage: 13 (CR 1); Attack +5 (+1); pack tactics increases effective attack bonus by +1: CR 2+
Final CR: You’ve again split the difference between CR ½ and 1, but since both were slightly better than their CRs, nudge it to 1. You placing them as CR 2 was a little high. Compare your Raptor to the Dire Wolf.

Raptor vs Dire Wolf
AC: same
HP: +2 to Raptor
Speed: +10 to Raptor
Stats: Wolf has +1 Str saves, Raptor has +1 Wis saves, should balance.
Saves: Proficient in Dex? That’s unusual for an animal
Others: Lethal blur is a bonus to the Raptor
Attacks: If they’re going for damage, they deal +3 damage more than the wolf; if they’re going for knockdown, they deal +2 damage but have a lower Str save DC.

So your Raptor is better than a Dire Wolf, but I’m not sure I’d say that it’s better enough.

 

[Demetrios1453]

Good work!

I was a bit surprised too that the MM didn't have a velociraptor/deinonychus type dinosaur, both because "small predator" is a unfilled niche among the dinosaurs listed, and, of course, the popularity of the Jurassic Park films/books. A sauropod and a stegosaur would be nice as well, though the latter could be easily converted from the ankylosaurus (just lower its AC and have the tail spikes do a bit more damage).

 

[Couatl]

You’ve split the difference between a CR ¼ and a CR ½. Decide where you want it to go, then buff it or nerf it

OK, I dropped the Dex to 15 which reduces the to-hit and average damage by 1 (keeping the AC at 13 with natural armor). Is it solidly CR 1/4 now?

I also changed the name of the claw jump ability, as Redthistle suggested.

Final CR: You’ve again split the difference between CR ½ and 1, but since both were slightly better than their CRs, nudge it to 1. You placing them as CR 2 was a little high.

Well, I'm wondering about the lethal blur ability + high speed. It gets into melee immediately unless you spot it REALLY far away (and it does have Stealth +5).

I'd like it to be CR 2, so what do I need to boost? Would AC 15, CON 16, HP 52 (7d8+21) be sufficient?

Saves: Proficient in Dex? That’s unusual for an animal

Yeah. JP Raptors are absurdly fast and agile, that's why it's there.

Thank you very much for your comments/help!