Final Fantasy XII sucks. Period. Fact.

[Rackhir]

This sounds like a good thing to me. At least SE looks like they're trying to move past some of the conventions of the genre; too many console RPGs have the same exact main character: An adolescent or young adult male who's father is dead or who is an orphan, who wields a sword expertly, even though he's only been using one since 5 minutes into the game, and whose hometown is destroyed at the beginning of the game.

You forgot the amnesia. Either the hero or at least one of the other main characters has to have amnesia.

Pity it's such a great storytelling trick that it's become such a cliche.

 

[TwinBahamut]

This sounds like a good thing to me. At least SE looks like they're trying to move past some of the conventions of the genre; too many console RPGs have the same exact main character: An adolescent or young adult male who's father is dead or who is an orphan, who wields a sword expertly, even though he's only been using one since 5 minutes into the game, and whose hometown is destroyed at the beginning of the game.

If you replace "hometown has been destroyed" with the equally common and cliche "hometown has been invaded by the Evil Empire (tm), then you get Vaan.

Seriously, Square-Enix is not breaking out of old conventions with Vaan, they are doing the exact opposite. Cecil, Bartz (Butz, whatever), Terra, Cloud, and even Squall were far less cliche than Vaan in this exact manner.

And arguments about the characters of FF12 aside, it is still a horribly boring game with a lousy central game mechanic (the License Board). The game plays out rather similarly to what FF6 would have been like if the march from Narshe to Figaro took 23 hours. What is more, the license board is a terrible mess that doesn't even let you build characters with the kind of interesting, classic abilities of the FF games. You can't build a lance-user who can use the jump command, you can't build a thief who can steal, and you can't build a paladin who can cover. All you can do is build a character who uses a particular weapon and some kind of magic, and keep spending points until the end of the game just to keep the equipment you need for that set-up up to date.

I wish Square-Enix would spend more time trying to take old, good FF systems and improve them, rather than constantly ditch old system in favor of flawed new ones. The job system was pretty lousy in FF3, but the improved versions of that system in FF5, FFT, and FF10-2 are among my favorites in the series. A re-imagined and improved Materia system or Junction system (two variations of the Magicite system, really), or a rebuilt Sphere Grid could be really good, but Square-Enix just wastes time making terrible new systems like the License Board.

 

[Grog]

What is more, the license board is a terrible mess that doesn't even let you build characters with the kind of interesting, classic abilities of the FF games. You can't build a lance-user who can use the jump command, you can't build a thief who can steal, and you can't build a paladin who can cover.

Um, you could make a thief who could steal.

 

[TwinBahamut]

Um, you could make a thief who could steal.

Huh, bad example then. I only remembered the Poach ability, not stealing. Whoops.

At least I can stick to the other examples, plus the countless other classic Final Fantasy archetypes that FF12 doesn't cover. No Dance or Sing abilities, no traditional summons (I like the Lucavi/Totema guys, but FFT/FFTA proved that you can keep them alongside the classics, and I miss more classic summoning attacks), no Runic, no Sword Magic, no Mimic, no Blue Magic, none of the FF10-2 Blue Gunner's anti-enemy type moves, no Mug command (or any other command that combines an attack with a special effect), none of Auron's defense moves, no counter-attack stances, no Geomancy, no Shock... If nothing else, the Final Fantasy games have had a lot special class abilities and character abilities that fit outside the realm of normal attacks and magic attacks, but FF12 has almost none of that.

 

[Vigilance]

The problem with Vaan (and Panelo) is that they don't even really have a reason to be there. There was absolutely no reason they couldn't have just made Ashe, Balthier, or Basch the main character. In fact, the young imperial prince, Larsa, would have been a pretty good main character. FF12 is the story of those characters, and Vaan is completely insignificant.

I disagree completely.

How is the story any less important to Vaan and Penelo, peasants living under the rule of a conquering power, than it is to Basch and Ashe, nobles living under a conquering power?

What you have are Dalmascan peasants and Dalmascan nobles, along with two rogues, working together to free their homeland.

If anything, Balthier and Fran are the odd-persons out.

All the good characters of past FF games, or even the bad ones, at least had some justification for being the main hero.

Yes, but I wouldnt say Vaan was the "main hero". I wouldnt say FF XII had a "main hero".

It's about a GROUP of heroes.

Each main character has their moment in the sun and Vaan has plenty. You say he's unimportant, I disagree. He carries the first half or so of the game.

Later in the game other characters step up, but that never bothered me, since Vaan had already had his moments in the sun.

And no, Vaan isn't the coolest character in the game imo. But neither was Tidus in FF X.

Chuck

 

[drothgery]

Yes, but I wouldnt say Vaan was the "main hero". I wouldnt say FF XII had a "main hero".

Ashe was the main hero of FFXII. Just like Yuna was the main hero of FFX, and Garnet was the main hero of FFIX. That none of them were the person you started with and primarily controlled was somewhat irrelevant.

 

[Amellia]

Ashe was the main hero of FFXII. Just like Yuna was the main hero of FFX, and Garnet was the main hero of FFIX. That none of them were the person you started with and primarily controlled was somewhat irrelevant.

I would actually make a case for Balthier as the hero of the game. But just the fact that this is an argument at all shows Vigilance's point, that the game is about a group of heroic people all fighting for the same cause, and that at any given time any number of them could be considered the "main" character. And I loved that about it.

And the game is not boring -- I was riveted. I've played it through completely four times now, and am planning to start a fifth when one of my friends gets in town, because she wants to see it. It comes down to personal taste. And I applaud Square for making a series of games that are subtly different from each other, having elements that appeal to different flavors of RPG gamers. 12 is my favorite -- it doesn't mean it should be your favorite too, but I will object to someone calling it boring or lame.

 

[drothgery]

I would actually make a case for Balthier as the hero of the game.

Balthier was arguably the most interesting and best-written character in the game (much like Auron was cooler than Yuna, the central character of FFX, and Tidus, the main point-of-view character). But it's hard to make a case that anyone other than Ashe was the central character to the story.

 

[Flash_Plasma]

Not to derail the thread, but... am I the only one who actually liked FFVIII and FFIX?

FFVIII: I liked the GF system, I thought it was interesting and they did have a tie in to the story. The evil sorceress stuff was a bit arbitrary but everything else was executed pretty well, especially the space station/ragnarok scenes.

FFIX: I thought the game took a sort of back-to-basics approach with the more traditional plot but adding a bit of a spin near the end with the whole two worlds thing. The system wasn't all that great but I thought the characters were pretty fleshed out (except Quina... but that's besides the point... Quina is... weird). This actually hits 2nd on my list of favorite PS1 games, the first being Resident Evil 2.

 

[Grog]

I didn't like FF8 much. Mainly because I really couldn't stand the main character. I don't have much patience for whiny-ass emo teenagers, and that translates to video games, too. And the whole plot device of "We all knew each other back at the orphanage!" was really stupid.

And the combat basically boiled down to "Draw until you get bored of drawing, then attack."

FF9 was awesome, though. One of the best in the series.