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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sunseeker" data-source="post: 5810985">Right, I mean, other people have pointed this out, you're totally NOT trolling for an edition war.  You're just stating your opinion like it's fact because it's not and therefore you're right?I've played Deadlands, probably the only TTRPG that really emphasizes "bad stuff happens to you!  it's cool!" and frankly I loved it.  At no point was I terrified for my life because I might lose a limb.  Comic books are anything but safe, I don't know when the last time you read one was, but comic books haven't been safe for a good 30 years.  Do the main-characters often come back from the dead?  Sure they do.  Is losing a limb common?  No but it does happen.So you basically set up encounters where normally powerful PCs would get level-drained into oblivion and then beat to death by zombies.  This is why noone likes level-drain, it's obnoxious and really only utilized so that DM can laugh at the players.You know, honestly I've never played an edition where "bad things" happen to the PCs on a regular basis.  Unless you rules-monkey it to make "bad things" cool such as Deadlands did(and the general western-dark-sci-fantasy-steampunk setting often does).It was also one of D&D's dumbest features.  Nobody liked it.  It was only ever used as a heavily punishing mechanic.  I mean who wants to play for months and work hard to get to level 5, only to get hit with some permanent level drain and have to do it all over from lvl 3?  I'm going to come out and say it: that just ain't fun.  Sarcasm, delicious.  Disarm exists in 4e, though it's limited to certain powers now instead of being a general skill or feat.If you don't like the way the mechanics work, house-rule it to work otherwise.  I don't know why people insist on acting like this is impossible in 4e.  I did it all the time.  ALL THE TIME.  Not to mention poison as a mechanical feature does a solid 5-10 points of damage PER ROUND.  If poison of that potency lasted, you could kill an entire party with it in under a day.  Sure, let bad things happen to players.  But wantonly killing your party just isn't fun.Alright...you liked curses.  I can't blame you, I liked curses too.  Problem is they were incredibly complicated and took an awful lot of effort to deal with.  This isn't a "don't have bad things happen to players", this is a "this was an obnoxious and overly-complex mechanic that few people utilized so we did away with it".I pity the foo who thinks he can't houserule.  No really, USE IT.  Just because the box says A doesn't mean you can't do Z.  Don't like that PCs can attack while grabbed?  House-rule it so they can't.  Don't like the fact that this particular TYPE of grab wasn't included in the game?  Well oh well, that doesn't mean the game isn't D&D, it just mean you didn't like it.  Your opinion is not a fact.I'm not sure what version of D&D you're really getting at here as being the "true" D&D, and I'll admit I've never played anything before 3.x, but in my experience, these things rarely lasted longer unless they were done by some incredibly dangerous high-level monster.  "So I want a system that makes my players suck for extended periods of time."  That's really what you're saying.  These things were removed because they were annoying and un-fun.  Honestly in all the non-4e games I've ever played, I've seen people use trip oh...about twice.  If players aren't using a feature enough to warrant it's continued existence, there's really no need to keep it.NO.  They can only do so during an extended rest.  They can recover SOME hit-points during a "short rest" through burning healing surges, but they won't get those back until they take an extended rest.  It makes them more vulnerable in the next fight if they do this as you can ONLY be healed though the use of healing surges.Honestly if you don't actually know how 4e works, please don't complain about it.Assuming a 4e character is not stupid high, the only "self heal" a player has is "Second Wind", or an ability that allows them to use a healing surge.  Times when an unconscious PC can heal are limited to rolling a nat20 on a death-saving throw.It isn't anything like that.  You clearly lack knowledge of the 4e system.Oh no!  They're called freedom fries instead of french fries!  Whatever shall we do?!  This reeks of the same garbage I hear on MMO forums whenever anyone tries to balance out caster classes.  "Oh no, I have to actually fight fair!  But I shouldn't have to play by the rules!"  Really this just shows you ignorance of 4e.  Having the same number and same relative scale of powers hardly makes for cookie-cutter builds.  Wizards just realized what everyone know about abilities, spells, and such from earlier editions: 90% of them were absolutely useless in most situations.What's that, everyone gets to do fun things instead of only one class?  QQ moar plz.  I feed on your tears.  You complain that they remove effects, then complain that they're used too often?  Make up your mind.  This stinks heavily of "I don't like 4e so it isn't D&D!!!!"  once again: your opinion is NOT FACT.You get 1 action point per extended rest and they can only be used once per encounter.  It does not magically make you hit, it lets you TRY AGAIN.  You clearly have no idea how 4e actually works and are just badmouthing what you've heard other people say 'cause you think you're "too cool" for a new edition.An issue that doesn't exist.  The only entitlement in this room is YOU, who wants to run around claiming that only YOU know what is or is not D&D.replace everything you said about 4e and use 3.x instead.  You know how many people said that?  A whole bloody lot.Calling me an ignorant idiot does not in any way improve your pathetic argument.You mean, sometimes a Gm has to think outside the box and do things their own way?  Well who's talking about entitlement now?Except it is.  It bold-faced is and you know it.  You're just trying to hide it behind "Well, you're not doing it wrong, Wizards did it wrong."  When the truth of the matter is you have NO CLUE how 4e works.</blockquote>

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