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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Henry" data-source="post: 5811003" data-attributes="member: 158">1) No experiences of Champions here, though I've played several superhero games so your point is taken.2) 3E already started the trend of lessening permanent crippling misfortunes. Level drain isn't level drain, not in the main sense, multiple saving throws were introduced to things like Hold Person, and even the vaunted haste and harm got rewrites to add extra saves and reduce the aging penalties/system shock. I'd go so far as to say 3E and its derivations aren't that close to 1E and 2E.3)Some of your observations match mine -- persistent conditions do I think need to return to D&D, BUT, some of the things removed, such as ability drain, 1E-style level drain, and anything that requires you to recalculate cascading changes to your character sheet, needs to be removed. You can have persistent conditions without needing to rewrite a third of your sheet thanks to a dex drain or losing permanent levels. However, a permanent "-2 to all attacks, defenses and skills" due to maiming, draining or whatnot I would prefer to "recalculate your ranged attacks, initiative, armor classes, attacks of opportunity, and reflex save due to dex loss."Grabbing and Disarming, I have to agree with, BUT grappling a la 3E was NOT the way to go, and as much better as CMB and CMD work in Pathfinder, it's not really the best answer, either. Grappling and pinning is unfortunately far too easy to do in 3.X, and, much like a "millstone" or "Amish" deck-build in Magic the gathering, it's a way to bypass someone's defenses completely with an "I Win" button and for the sake of fun play needs to be useful but still curtailed, simulationism be darned.4) agreed about an excess of in-combat healing, but the points about "powers" -- they did call them other things. They called them exploits, prayers, disciplines, spells, and several other things -- the overarching "powers" gets overused by fans, not designers.Balance? As you say, essentials is where they learned better lessons -- but they learned them well, and it's a shame Essentials gets bad press because it has some awesome features I hope to see in 5E.Now, what HAS 4E given BACK to D&D that 3E took away? A few things:1) Resting after a combat. For goodness's sake, someone should not be able to simply hop from combat to combat with seconds apart completely unscathed; they should be out of breath, down on resources, and dreading the next corner, and 4E does simulate this. I've made it a point once every few sessions to have a scenario that encourages players to NOT take that 5 Minute rest, in the face of a negative consequence that faces them if they don't (stopping an assassination, a building is collapsing, goblins are cutting the rope bridge, etc.) If you haven't seen a 4E party scared to take a short rest, I highly encourage it at least once or twice. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />2) Smaller totals of hit points. YES, I SAID SMALLER. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> (for those whom I've seen critiquing high hit point totals in 4E)A 4E character gets only 4 to 6 hit points per level, NO con bonus; Your average 10th level fighter decked out in magic gear might have 90 to 100 hit points (about 10d10+5 or so); a 4E level 10 fighter has about 80, and as levels go up, this gets more pronounced. He gets the equivalent of average hit points per level, plus a "kicker" of about 20 points, same as Hackmaster, really. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />3) DM Fiat, and Non-PC-style monsters, my two favorite returns to D&D. I can run a 4E session, of any level, using two charts from the DMG, and the monsters will be level appropriate and involve very few notes, only making the creatures within seconds of their needing to fight it. In 3E, I still can't do this (well, except for FantasyCraft d20) -- to have a level appropriate monster I need to have a half-page to full page writeup for every creature they could fight, including spells cast, effects should they dispel magic on them, etc. -- Stuff I didn't ever need in 1E and 2E.4) Mundane challenges in adventures of fairly high level. This is one that actually 4E does MORE than older D&D did. Want to fly to bypass that castle wall? Sorry, you need to be about 14th level or more. (Or a druid as a defenseless little wren.) Want to teleport across the world? Sorry, you need this ritual, and can only go to these predetermined gates. Want to scry-buff-teleport to your enemy and take him out? What the heck is that???All of the above I found in 4E that returned to the game, that was removed by 3E and its descendants. Much as I like and play both games, these are some concepts that I would be thrilled to see in 4E somehow mechanically represented.</blockquote>

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