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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DamionW" data-source="post: 2684282" data-attributes="member: 18649">Thia-Don't worry about me getting offended.  It takes a lot more than a polite disagreement than that.  Hope you're the same way (I believe you are).  Now, for what you posted:Good examples of smoke inhalation.  I think I will put some kind of allowance for that in, roll it up with the Fire Eyes ability that already negates the concealment effects of smoke.As for the Paladin seeming a "beefier" change, the mechanics really weren't that much more than minor tweaks.  I simply took the Positive Energy effects of Detecting, Smiting, and Laying on Hands and changed them to a more Water-based mechanic like the Water domain cleric already has.  Then I swapped Quench for Remove Disease, swapped a Create Water effect for disease immunity and altered their spell lists, taking out "holy" type of spells and replacing them with water effect spells.  It seems like a massive overhaul, but really it wasn't that much mechanically.  It's more of the in-depth discussion we had on the flavor of the paladin that made it seem such a drastic change.  The Paladin, mechanically, is still a second-string combatant with some targetted supernatural and spell-like abilities to focus on a specific enemy (it just happens to be Fire enemies instead of Evil enemies).Some of your opinions are based on the idea that I want to elevate these classes above what they were in the PHB.  That's not exactly correct, I just needed to change the flavor and mechanics to place them where they would naturally lie in the elemental world order.  The overall goal I have, though, is to make these variant classes not outshadow other base classes, nor the variant classes of another element in the game.  I don't want a player to pick up my house rules and say, "I'm definitely going to play a Fire barbarian because their getting abilities A and B from the Fire element is clearly superior to the original barbarians X and Y abilities, or the windstalkers trade-off of abilities C and D they get from the Air element."  I want them to see the PHB version of a paladin, or a ranger, or a barbarian, just defined for one element rather than as a general fantasy class.I hope you see where I'm going: These classes should still feel like "core" classes.  A lot of the abilities you've been suggesting definitely are strong on the elemental abilities and would be fun to play as a character, as well as add a lot of flavor to the campaign world.  My concern is they are more of the province of elemental PrC abilities.  To try and take a RAW barbarian and work all of these cool heat effects in, you'd have to find what to effectively trade out for them and still try to make it break even.  It's especially hard considering they don't have many magic-related abilities in the first place.  "Vanilla" fighters and rogues still exist in the campaign world, and there shouldn't be a particular disincentive to play them just because my houserules are more detailed for the variant classes.If you and Nyaricus can help me figure out how to weight something like a fire damge grapple or a heat metal grasp against the trap-sense or uncanny dodge abilities "pound for pound" so to say, I'd be interested.  However, to me you're then elevating the "supernatural" feeling of the barbarian far beyond what they were intended, a very primal, brute force style of warrior that relies on cunning instead of technique.  The rage extension and fire resistance fit naturally into the order for a barbarian.  These warriors become furious when they fight, losing control.  Seeing burning flesh and ash just makes them more furious, losing sight of their limitations.  Barbarians normally shrug off damage others would feel.  These barbarians just happen to burn themselves enough to shrug that off to an even further extent.  Fire grappling and metal heating are definitely good in the fire flavor department.  They just don't seem to fit to me in the barbarian flavor department.I hope this isn't coming off as dismissive.  I appreciate the inputs you've been giving and you are helping me define my campaign world.  All I want to try and keep clear on is balance and continuity for these concepts as basic, and not prestige classes.</blockquote>

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