Firearms Preview

[Colmarr]

Of course, none of this takes into account feats (which I have not seen)

Here you go. Starting at post #23.

Load minor and load free feature quite prominently in the discussion of feats.

Not sure what happened to that thread. Maybe it dropped off the front page of a board that only displays the front page? Luckily I had earlier emailed it to a friend and still had the email.

 

[Riastlin]

Here you go.

Load minor and load free feature quite prominently in the discussion of feats.

Not sure what happened to that thread. Maybe it dropped off the front page of a board that only displays the front page? Luckily I had earlier emailed it to a friend and still had the email.

Hrm, link brings me back to this thread. Oh well. At any rate, load free/load minor makes sense. That definitely brings guns into a more playable role should you wish to feature them in your build. You end up dumping feats into them in exchange for making them more usable which is a fair trade off in my opinion.

 

[Colmarr]

Hrm, link brings me back to this thread. Oh well.

My bad. Link fixed.

Part of the reason why I like these rules so much is that they dovetail so nicely with the rest of 4e's rules. There are no fiddly subsystems or proud nails (except for some of the optional rules, especially Threat of Force).

And designing them in such a way that they can be integrated into the character builder is pure genius.

 

[JustKim]

I'll withhold final judgement until I see the feats and whatnot, but everything I see makes me think we will be replacing Zeitgeist's firearm rules with something else. These weapons are not tempting at all, they're a handicap. The reload times are untenable and the benefits are insignificant for one-off weapons. And, given the investment that PCs have in weapon types as time goes on, one-off weapons themselves quickly become a waste. Nobody I have shown these rules to is happy with them, and if the rules cause us to avoid using firearms in a setting designed to showcase them, the rules are not doing their job.

Unless things change significantly, my only request is that you make these rules able to be easily excised and replaced with something my group prefers.

 

[Colmarr]

I'll withhold final judgement until I see the feats and whatnot, but everything I see makes me think we will be replacing Zeitgeist's firearm rules with something else. These weapons are not tempting at all, they're a handicap.

I've linked to a thread with two of the feats mentioned in it.

You really don't think that three feats (Superior Weapon Prof, Firearms Expertise and Quickloader or equivalent) is not worth it for a ranged weapon that is range 20/40, prof +3 (a total of +4 with expertise), 1d10 damage, brutal 2, high crit, and reload free?

When compared to a longbow with Bow Expertise, you spend two extra feats for +1 prof, -1 per tier damage, brutal 2 and high crit. Seems like a fair swap to me, especially for rangers and other ranged multiattackers.

Or two feats (Firearms Expertise and Quickloader; one if you don't have much need for your minor action) to go from daggers (+3 prof/1d4 damage) or hand crossbows (+2 prof/1d6 damage) to pistols (+2 prof/1d6 damage, brutal 2 and high crit) for thieves and rogues?*

Firearms aren't terribly viable as weapons for prolonged use by non-specialists because the feat (or action) investment is too high, but that seems entirely appropriate to me. This isn't revolver-era technology. This is the magitech equivalent of flintlock. I've previously commented on the apparent oddness of having flintlock-era firearms in a setting that has cannons and steam-powered battleships of the like of the RNS Coaltongue, but if it's flintlock-era firearms you want, this system is IMO an excellent way of implementing them.

And the ability to have a pistol or carbine built into your melee weapon is a massive step forward, as it avoids (at least for a turn) the weapon-swap dance that melee characters need to engage in if they're unlucky enough to get immobilised out of reach of an enemy.

*I'm assuming here that 'analagous' means for all intents and purposes (such as for Rogue Weapon Talent).

 

[Riastlin]

My bad. Link fixed.

Part of the reason why I like these rules so much is that they dovetail so nicely with the rest of 4e's rules. There are no fiddly subsystems or proud nails (except for some of the optional rules, especially Threat of Force).

And designing them in such a way that they can be integrated into the character builder is pure genius.

Excellent! Thanks for the link, that definitely looks like it may well work for the way they are presenting firearms in the setting. I get the impression that firearms are relatively new to the world, so they are not going to be real common yet (i.e. this isn't 4ed Modern -- which I assumed already -- but they are becoming common enough that its not a stretch for a PC or NPC to have one).

I'll withhold final judgement until I see the feats and whatnot, but everything I see makes me think we will be replacing Zeitgeist's firearm rules with something else. These weapons are not tempting at all, they're a handicap. The reload times are untenable and the benefits are insignificant for one-off weapons. And, given the investment that PCs have in weapon types as time goes on, one-off weapons themselves quickly become a waste. Nobody I have shown these rules to is happy with them, and if the rules cause us to avoid using firearms in a setting designed to showcase them, the rules are not doing their job.

Unless things change significantly, my only request is that you make these rules able to be easily excised and replaced with something my group prefers.

Personally, I see firearms (as they are currently being previewed) as something that most characters would use with an encounter or daily ranged attack. The higher damage of the firearm takes advantage of the higher damage expressions of the limited use powers. The biggest problem would be with powers that presume 2 shots. Even there though I would think it would be pretty easy to incorporate something like a double barreled shotgun if you wanted to.

Edit to add: Basically, the way I see it, you have two options when introducing firearms into a more or less traditional fantasy rpg. A) You make firearms the default ranged weapon, in which case you can just pretty much eliminate bows and crossbows. This more or less puts you in Civil War/Revolutionary War era. Sure, there may have been some use of bows for very specific purposes, but in general, the rank and file were using firearms and then switching to melee when ranks closed. Option B) is to balance firearms with other ranged weapons so that in theory at least, there is an equal distribution of players choosing each type of weapon. To do this, you need to make firearms do more damage, but have some sort of heavier opportunity cost -- either extra feats to get on par with bows, or much higher damage but longer reloads, etc.

Personally, I like the idea of shooting for option B, and it seems that these rules are going to be at the very least, close to accomplishing that goal.

 

[Morrus]

I'll withhold final judgement until I see the feats and whatnot, but everything I see makes me think we will be replacing Zeitgeist's firearm rules with something else. These weapons are not tempting at all, they're a handicap. The reload times are untenable and the benefits are insignificant for one-off weapons. And, given the investment that PCs have in weapon types as time goes on, one-off weapons themselves quickly become a waste. Nobody I have shown these rules to is happy with them, and if the rules cause us to avoid using firearms in a setting designed to showcase them, the rules are not doing their job.

Unless things change significantly, my only request is that you make these rules able to be easily excised and replaced with something my group prefers.

It's not a setting designed to showcase them; but they're there as an option for those interested. However, to make them worthwhile you need to invest feats, themes, and the like into them - otherwise yes, you are definitely better off with a bow.

We don't intend to have everyone running round with pistols and rifles - they're new, untrusted technology. They haven't supplanted bows and swords yet, and not many people know how to use them.

If you'd prefer a feel whereby they're common, you can easily make that change. Perhaps hand out a couple of free feats, or adjust the stats slightly.

 

[RangerWickett]

I considered having an optional rule to let them target a specific defense, but it didn't work well with all the powers that are only useful because they let the PC target a different defense. Also, considering how terribly inaccurate early guns were, I considered giving them no proficiency bonus, or just +1. Then I realized mixing the two together kinda balanced out.

I mean, if I were trying to make this setting 'realistic,' I'd grab, I dunno, Warhammer rules and give armor a Damage Reduction rating, and weapons an 'armor penetration' rating. Firearms would be 'advanced' weapons that would ignore half an armor's DR. Special armor would likewise be 'advanced' so it could resist firearms.

But in a world where you can be swallowed whole by a giant worm, teleport, and have daggers hurt dragons, I'm fine with saying armorsmiths have figured out ways for plate armor to block bullets.

Then again, it's perfectly easy to house rule guns to be 'better.' We've already got a few optional rules to make them the best weapons in the world. If you want to let them auto-target Fort or Ref, that's easy to do.

 

[Colmarr]

We've already got a few optional rules to make them the best weapons in the world.

I must admit that the 'extra 2[W]' optional rule did make me "WTF?!"

For those who want firearms to be more readily available, though, it works nicely to counterract the action problems, because in many cases it - combined with brutal 2 - means your firearm is doing double (at least) the damage that another type of ranged weapon would do. That evens out against having to spend the extra standard action to reload.

 

[Riastlin]

I must admit that the 'extra 2[W]' optional rule did make me "WTF?!"

For those who want firearms to be more readily available, though, it works nicely to counterract the action problems, because in many cases it - combined with brutal 2 - means your firearm is doing double (at least) the damage that another type of ranged weapon would do. That evens out against having to spend the extra standard action to reload.

Yeah, the only problem though is that then they'd definitely be used for those Encounter and Daily powers that deal multi-weapon damage, which would increase the gap even more. Still though, would definitely keep it so that you'd want regular ranged weapons too -- just makes combats a bit shorter.