Pathfinder 1E Fireball and Improved Cover

[brunswick]

Hiya folks,

Just a question.

A player character in my game attempted to cast a fireball through an arrow slit into a guardhouse the other night. The scenario states that the guards inside the gate-house have Improved Cover (+4 Reflex defence and Improved Evasion) but the player argued that this didnt apply to his spell since he was picking a point within the guardhouse and the fireball exploded out from there, thus negating the improved cover. I do know that he has to make a ranged touch attack to fire the bead through the arrow slit but I am still unsure whether or not the guards are entitled to improved cover against the spell. Is the player correct?

Cheers,


Bruns.

 

[delericho]

Firstly, it's your game and so your call.

However...

I do know that he has to make a ranged touch attack to fire the bead through the arrow slit but I am still unsure whether or not the guards are entitled to improved cover against the spell. Is the player correct?

I'd agree with the player on this one - if he has to make a ranged touch attack to fire the bead through the arrow slit, then a successful roll would indeed negate the Improved Cover.

Note that the Improved Cover does apply to that ranged touch attack roll, though, so he needs to hit AC 13 (5 for hitting a grid intersection +8 for cover).

Though I'm not sure what I'd do if the attack roll misses. Logic suggests that it should hit the cover and explode (meaning that the targets still need to save, albeit with the bonuses from the cover. But doing that effectively gives the PC two bites at the cherry and also means there is no reason not to try to fire it through the arrow slit - which doesn't really feel right.

(An alternate approach, and most likely what I would actually do, would be to remove the ranged touch attack and just have everyone make saves normally (with the targets getting the bonus from cover normally). But that's not RAW.)

 

[Starfox]

I've thought long and hard about this and decided to disallow these kinds of round-the-cover fireballs. Having a roll to see if a later roll is modified seems redundant to me. It also makes in-game terrain less worthwhile. But this is IMC, I've not seen any rules for this from Paythfinder. If there ever were such rules, I think that was back in 2E or something and it has since become a kind of gamer's lore.

 

[delericho]

I've thought long and hard about this and decided to disallow these kinds of round-the-cover fireballs. Having a roll to see if a later roll is modified seems redundant to me.

Agreed.

But this is IMC, I've not seen any rules for this from Pathfinder. If there ever were such rules, I think that was back in 2E or something and it has since become a kind of gamer's lore.

It's in the fireball spell description (both in the 3.5e SRD, and copied verbatim in the Pathfinder version).

 

[amerigoV]

Firstly, it's your game and so your call.

However...



I'd agree with the player on this one - if he has to make a ranged touch attack to fire the bead through the arrow slit, then a successful roll would indeed negate the Improved Cover.

Note that the Improved Cover does apply to that ranged touch attack roll, though, so he needs to hit AC 13 (5 for hitting a grid intersection +8 for cover).

Though I'm not sure what I'd do if the attack roll misses. Logic suggests that it should hit the cover and explode (meaning that the targets still need to save, albeit with the bonuses from the cover. But doing that effectively gives the PC two bites at the cherry and also means there is no reason not to try to fire it through the arrow slit - which doesn't really feel right.

It's been awhile since I played 3.5 (and I have not played PF), but is their any range increment on the range touch attack? That seems to be the flaw here - a 10th level wizard can be 800' (160 squares away) and still only have to hit AC 13.

On the miss, the spell says it detonates if it hit something. I would say if you still hit AC5 the poeple inside have to make a save as you hit the square. If you did not hit the square, no dice (and if you roll a 1 to hit, save vs. Reflex my friend, you just dropped the grenade).

(also, be sure to drop a few of these on the PCs).

 

[delericho]

It's been awhile since I played 3.5 (and I have not played PF), but is their any range increment on the range touch attack?

No, although there probably should be, for exactly the reason you give.

On the miss, the spell says it detonates if it hit something. I would say if you still hit AC5 the poeple inside have to make a save as you hit the square. If you did not hit the square, no dice (and if you roll a 1 to hit, save vs. Reflex my friend, you just dropped the grenade).

AFAIK, the rules don't actually say how this should be resolved. My inclination would be to have the bead hit the cover and explode, thus taking effect centred on this side of the cover. Thus, any opponents behind the cover would have to save (with +4 and Improved Evasion, due to the cover). Similarly, any characters near this side of the cover (and so within the blast radius) would have to save without the benefit of the cover.

An alternative would be to treat the bead similarly to a "grenade-like weapon", and so roll for scatter. However, this does require the assignment of some sort of range increment (as the bead will scatter one square per range increment in a random direction).

The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to agree with Starfox - don't bother with the ranged touch attack, and just give the opponents behind the cover a standard save (at the +4 bonus previously mentioned). It's simpler, quicker, and gets the job done.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I would allow it. However, if he misses and strikes the wall outside I would be inclined to say that the people inside are completely protected. It's not merely the fire having to come in through the slit but the fact that it exploded directly in contact with the wall--there is no line of sight from the burst point to *ANY* point inside the area.

 

[S'mon]

I would allow it. However, if he misses and strikes the wall outside I would be inclined to say that the people inside are completely protected. It's not merely the fire having to come in through the slit but the fact that it exploded directly in contact with the wall--there is no line of sight from the burst point to *ANY* point inside the area.

Me too. The fireball blast doesn't turn corners.

 

[Greenfield]

If I were the player, I'd argue that they have Improved Cover against attacks from outside the tower. That is, ray spells, missile weapons, etc.

Presuming that the Ranged Touch attack hits to thread the needle of that arrow slit, the Fireball is "attacking" from within the chamber. The Improved Cover supplied by the outer walls doesn't apply.

Hitting that arrow slit is a bit harder than someone else suggested though. It's a base DC of 10, and a size modifier for a Tiny arrow slit. That is, you aren't just trying to hit the square, which would be AC 5 (10 base -5 for the utter lack of Dex that most towers suffer.) You're trying to hit a Tiny target that is effectively inside the tower wall. Specifically, the wall isn't zero thickness, and you need to hit not just the outside of the arrow slit, but the inner opening as well.

Think of a certain Jedi pilot shooting at a cooling vent: He hit the vent with one of his shots, but it hit the inside of the shaft and detonated early. He heeded to hit the *bottom* of that shaft.

As for what happens if he misses: By the rules it hits the wall and detonates outside. If that happens, while the fire will pour through that opening, everyone inside will have their Improved Cover against it.

Also, figure that if it's an arrow slit then there's an archer inside ready to go ker-thunk into any spellcaster who lines themselves up so they can make that shot. If the caster isn't in direct line with that opening, they have zero chance of shooting through it. Like I said, the walls are more than zero thickness. So plan for the Ready Action shot to ruin the spell caster's day.

 

[Starfox]

A related question - if I ready an arrow to shoot at the fireball as it approaches, how hard is it to hit?

Colliding with an arrow should make the fireball explode prematurely.