First Elites of my Campaign

[the Jester]

Their damage is now too high.

Lazarus should have average damage of level + 8, or 15. His wounding dagger averages 18 + ongoing 5- too high IMHO. Also, given that he's going to be getting combat advantage (and thus +4, more when he becomes bloodied) over half the time, I'd set his average damage at level +2 plus ongoing 5 w/o combat advantage- maybe 2d6+4.

Rolf, being a brute, should average (level + 8) x 1.25 damage, so about 17 or 18 points; again, he's doing too much at the moment (19, sometimes plus ongoing 5, plus with a third attack as an at-will immediate action). Personally, I would lower his hammer damage to 2d8+8 and change his cleaver damage to 1d12+7 plus ongoing 5 (it's always good to give your d12s some use!), and then change Smell of Blood- it still feels too soldiery to me- to a recharge 5 6 or maybe recharge when he starts his turn with no adjacent enemies or something. Or swap it out for a more "BAM! Hit you hard!" once per encounter or something that isn't so soldiery.

 

[Mengu]

With action point, Lazarus is looking at 4 attacks against a single target, dealing 3d8+8. If he hits 4 times, that's 86 damage. You haven't told us what level your party is and how many of them there are, and we don't know what kind of healing resources they have. If you think they can handle this scenario, it's fine. But going by the book, damage is a bit too high, high enough to kill an unsuspecting level 6 cleric.

I'd change the base damage to 2d6+6, or 2d4+8. I don't mind the ongoing 5 on the basic attack. His better double attack doesn't have the ongoing, so that's fine. I like the 1d8/2d8 sneak. Don't see a problem with 2/encounter Binding Scarves. You could even make it reach 2 or reach 3, just for flair.

Rolf's damage is fine I think. He doesn't have the two double attack nova potential because his double attack is on a recharge. And it's possible to avoid or shut down his triggered attack. I feel the higher damage is justified when an elite can't reliably make two attacks a round. Dazed (save ends) on a basic attack is pretty scary though. I'd keep an eye on that, and if it's slowing things too much, put it on a recharge, or altogether stop dazing when he's bloodied or something.

Also, give Lazarus a ranged basic attack. He has daggers, he should be able to throw them. For the sake of ease, I'd just change Wounding Dagger to melee or ranged 5/10.

 

[Trit One-Ear]

I think whatever table I'm using for my "New Monster Math" is wrong... I can't seem to land on the right numbers

Also, my formula for figuring out average damage based on dice. I have Lazarus doing 16-17 average... which is still high with the ongoing 5, I'll admit.

My party is a group of 4 level 6 PC's. Without a "pure" healer (but a cleric/fighter hybrid and a paladin). This is probably far too much damage output for them.

Can someone look at the file (linked here http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4t...7158-new-monster-math-explained-expanded.html ) I've been using to do my monster math and tell me if it's accurate? I'll do some more tinkering with these guys' damages.

On the notes about abilities; I'll definitely give Lazarus a ranged attack, it makes sense he can throw a few knives... or maybe I'll flavor it around his scarves. We shall see.

I like Rolf's Smell of Blood... but I see what you mean. I'm avoiding using soldiers as much as possible to avoid grind, but still want to give Rolf some ability to harass players that try to get away from him. If you still disagree however, I shall listen to your expertise.

Trit

 

[Mengu]

Can someone look at the file (linked here http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4t...7158-new-monster-math-explained-expanded.html ) I've been using to do my monster math and tell me if it's accurate? I'll do some more tinkering with these guys' damages.

I think that document takes into account the author's personal experiences, which may or may not fit your group's experience. I just use the base damage expressions released by WotC in the update document. It basically comes out to level + 8 damage as the base expression. Against my groups, I can usually add extra control effects, conditional damage, ongoing damage, etc, without modifying that base expression. I'm more frivolous with this against 6 PC's than against 4. Against 4, I "take it easy" on them, reducing control effects, and extra damage, or reducing overall damage. Again, everyone is going to have a different experience based on players, DM'ing style etc. I'm a pretty brutal DM, typically playing monsters rather tactically. But another DM might take my encounters, and run them quite differently, yielding a vastly different experience. I see this in LFR all the time, between DM variations, variations on player group, character composition, number of players, etc.

Ultimately, these are just guidelines. You will need to use your own judgement at some point, and always be prepared with contingencies such as fluky initiative.

Anyway, all the rambling aside, for a group of 4 with only half a healer, you'll definitely want to lower the damage expressions to recommended values, and be ware of monster nova potential. Lazarus's damage currently is 17. He is level 7, so he should be 15, going by standard numbers. But his nova potential is high, given combat advantage, action point, and double attack. That's why I'd lower the damage to 13. I'm not too worried about ongoing 5. He will rarely use his basic attack. Typically his tactic should be to double attack the same target and focus fire with Rolf. In 7 attacks, they should be able to take down a PC. After expending their action points, things won't be so bad, and the PC's will recover from the onslaught, and swing the fight their way with some healing, control, appropriate marking, and focused fire of their own.

 

[Trit One-Ear]

Would love to give you xp for the good help and the quick response, but I am unable.

Trit

 

[Octangula]

I've heard people suggest (and I agree with them on this) that any attack that does ongoing damage should factor in that ongoing damage in its calculation. So if a level 7 monster is doing ongoing 5, for example, then the attack itself should only do an average of 12 (2d6+5 being the obvious formula for this).

About the only other thing that I would add to what's been said before, is that Tough as Nails should probably do a static amount of damage, to lower the amount of dice rolls that you have to make.

 

[Trit One-Ear]

Update:

Just ran the encounter tonight, and had a blast!
Mostly my two defender/healers tried to lock down Rolf while Lazarus danced around the wizard and ranger (after being blinded, immobilized etc). The players all got some great shots (including my girlfriend criting both elites with a daily), but were still scared of the two powerhouses they fought.

As for the traps (only briefly discussed before), they added just the right amount of threat to the encounter. No one was hit by one, but the players never gave me a chance to try. They even spent action points to shift out of the danger zone.

So many thanks to everyone for helping me build an encounter that kept my players on the edge of their seats, and gave them a chance to feel truly heroic!.

Trit