D&D 5E First TPK Players got frustrated

[The_Gunslinger658]

Played earlier today and one of my players threw a magic bean from the bag of beans, hoping to destroy a orc hoard, well she did just that as a huge pyramid rose up from the ground, taking both orcs and party members 60 ft up, than they all fell to the ground with the party down to less than 5HP due to falling damage and the whole orc hoard just plain dead. Than a mummy lord emerged from the pyramid and finished off what was left of the orc hoards.

Did the mummy lord kill the players? Nope, he felt they freed him from banishment, so he let them go. Of course I never expected one of my players to throw a magic bean at a hoard of orcs but hey you never know till you try. Plus the role playing was just plain magical as the players were scared crappless by this guy. Now the players will have to come back and deal with him at a higher level.

I suppose I could have just killed the party outright, but I felt that with them freeing the Mummy lord (off the cuff improvising) He just took pity on them and let them go. The key thing here is, to be a good DM, you gotta like to lose and not say no to your players. And hey, it was an interesting situation that got alot of RP out of it and it was fun.

So give your players a chance, TPK's are just a real downer I think.

Scott

 

[Harzel]

Did they know that the rooms they skipped were full of kobolds? Or at least had the potential to be occupied by some kind of enemy that could move about the dungeon behind their position?

If they did not, then they are probably objecting to a "gotcha" - feeling blindsided by you for an uninformed decision they made previously. It's a good policy to telegraph potential threats so the players are always making informed decisions. That way if something goes wrong, they can look back and say "Well, I guess we knew what we were leaving behind us and that was a risk we should have thought twice about."

However, if they knew those rooms were filled with monsters that weren't going to just stay put, then their annoyance is probably due to some other factor. That could be simple ego or an expectation that you wouldn't throw anything too difficult at them given their level (the DMG warns against this form of "metagame thinking"). In this case, that's their problem and they're now making it your problem which is not cool. The best solution there in my opinion is an open and honest conversation to clear the air and find a suitable compromise to move forward.

Yep, pretty much this. Just to expand a bit on whether they were informed - remember that things that are obvious to you as the DM may easily not be obvious to your players. In this case, even if they never saw anything that would prevent the kobolds from jumping in behind, they likely needed to actually see kobolds on the move. Instead of encountering ten kobolds just sitting (in one of the rooms that they didn't skip), there are five kobolds just sitting and one round after the battle starts, five more come from down the corridor that they didn't bother to explore. Or the kobolds aren't just sitting, they are patrolling the hallway. Or there is a room with no kobolds, but signs that they were there very recently.

And, as someone else mentioned, the fact that the kobolds waited until the party was fighting the BBEG needs to have had a good rationale.

But if those things are ok, then the situation doesn't seem unfair.

 

[KarinsDad]

So my players first said that they felt that I was being unfair. So I told them that they were not necessarily dead but just unconsious and captured by the kobolds, as I felt bad for making the combat very difficult. This gave them the idea that I had planned this all along as a plot twist (eventhough I didn't) which made them annoyed.

Overall this has made me regret letting them keep their characters alive. What do you think, was I being to harsh in combat? Should I have let them keep their characthers?

I once ran the Temple of Elemental Evil and the low level PCs walked through the entire place until they got to the lowest level. It's as if they had a map to avoid most of the place and get to the deadliest place first. It took several game days for the PCs to all die, but stuff happens in games, regardless of player or DM intent.


I would just talk with the players, explain the situation, and let them decide how they want to continue. Explain that "stuff happens" and if they are still annoyed after that, ask the most annoyed player to DM and see how he does. I have never gotten annoyed that my PC has died (although I did quit one game because the DM killed my PC without even initiating combat and after he did this, he was all snarky about it).

Dying is part of a challenging game. I don't really understand why people get real annoyed about it, but everyone's different. Explain the situation and see what shakes out.

 

[Tersival]

You weren't being unfair, but you weren't making it much fun for the players. TPK isn't fun unless it is magnificently heroic.

They have learnt that if plans go wrong you won't be forgiving and the risk of character death is real. Suddenly, the game isn't funny any more, ...

This bit I have trouble with.

If the players are all the kind who like to play video games on easy mode with mods that make them godlike and that's fun for them this might be true.

But if they're the kind that like to enjoy the satisfaction that comes from victory earned through clever triumph over real challenge, the risk of defeat or TPK gives their triumphs that extra satisfaction.

Others have pointed out the need for descriptive clues needed to tip players off so they don't feel cheated by TPK, but careless planning going wrong is a different matter.

 

[BoldItalic]

This bit I have trouble with.

If the players are all the kind who like to play video games on easy mode with mods that make them godlike and that's fun for them this might be true.

But if they're the kind that like to enjoy the satisfaction that comes from victory earned through clever triumph over real challenge, the risk of defeat or TPK gives their triumphs that extra satisfaction.

Others have pointed out the need for descriptive clues needed to tip players off so they don't feel cheated by TPK, but careless planning going wrong is a different matter.

Yes, that's the way experienced players play and it's a normal part of the "social contract", even if it's an unspoken one: "Screwing up can be fatal." But the OP has described a situation where the players apparently hadn't taken that thought on board or, if they did, they hadn't taken it seriously; and that, it seems to me, is the underlying issue. For one reason or another, their expectations about the game turned out to be wrong.

It might be that they thought deep down that, like in a video game, if you die you can just reload the last save and try again. It might be that they didn't know that monsters can actually move about from room to room and do things to defend themselves, rather than standing stock still waiting to be killed. There could be all kinds of reasons. We don't know because the OP hasn't told us, but we don't really need to know. What we do know is that the players misunderstood how D&D plays out at the OP's table.

 

[Shasarak]

I often see the complaint "Why dont my Players ever have their Characters run from battle" but this is the first time I have seen them try to run but the DM wont let them.

 

[robus]

I often see the complaint "Why dont my Players ever have their Characters run from battle" but this is the first time I have seen them try to run but the DM wont let them.

Yeah the DM blocking all avenues of escape when the players want to run also seems like a bit of a gotcha.

 

[KarinsDad]

Yeah the DM blocking all avenues of escape when the players want to run also seems like a bit of a gotcha.

I have done this on occasion (I did it the last time I DMed before I switched over to being a player, but that was because this was the second time the PCs raided a given location in a few days and the enemy was prepared).

I don't necessarily view it as a gotcha because the players (at least appeared to have) made several poor decisions and the DM responded with semi-logical responses by the monsters. However, I did wonder how the 8 Int Kobolds knew that barricading the door was more threatening than just attacking (assuming that this was the case, maybe the DM thought that having the bypassed kobolds attacking made it even more likely to TPK). We need a little more information here to create an informed opinion.

 

[OB1]

Did they know that the rooms they skipped were full of kobolds? Or at least had the potential to be occupied by some kind of enemy that could move about the dungeon behind their position?

If they did not, then they are probably objecting to a "gotcha" - feeling blindsided by you for an uninformed decision they made previously. It's a good policy to telegraph potential threats so the players are always making informed decisions. That way if something goes wrong, they can look back and say "Well, I guess we knew what we were leaving behind us and that was a risk we should have thought twice about."

Adding to this great advice from iserith, I'd say the baring of the door may have been particularly problematic without prior telegraphing of that possible outcome.

I think allowing them to flee the tough fight but then have a series of smaller encounters with the previously skipped kobolds as they attempt to escape the dungeon may have been a better solution.

As for what to do now, I would talk it over with the players and find out what exactly they didn't like about the situation and how best to resolve so that everyone is enjoying their time around the table.

 

[JeffB]

Life's a bitch in the dungeon.

If they had options, and chose poorly then I don't see the issue. Play smarter. No threat of character death makes for a boring game.

That said, I would probably give them a "campaign loss" ala 13th Age and prisoner escape scenario would be a good follow-up, and make it very clear they may not be so lucky the next time. This isn't Super Mario Galaxy.