D&D 3E/3.5 Fix for overpowered 3.5 Druids?
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jodyjohnson
Adventurer
I think the two changes from 3.0 to 3.5 that overcompensated the druid were: 1) Moving Wildshape to supernatural instead of spell-like and 2) Boosting Polymorph and subsequently Wildshape to grant creature type.
While the switch to supernatural keeps Wildshape from being interuptable and dispellable it also, well, makes it undispellable. Undispellable buffs are pretty powerful. -- House rule 1: Break enchantment can possibly end a wildshape through the end transmutation clause (subject to caster level check). Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel cannot. Mages Disjunction ends it.
The change to polymorph which grants creature type boggles the mind. Especially given the number of abilities that were shifted from special qualities to being a factor of type - most notably the Plant type. Wildshape didn't have plant as a standard option in 3.0 and then added it in 3.5 plus the gaining type aspect. Undispellable buffs covering a long list of effects = unbalancing in my book.
It also adds the element of animal buffs enhancing the druid. Most of these are better than buffs for human types and stack with the already substantial boost from Wildshape. -- House rule 2: Polymorph and thus Wildshape do not grant type. -- not sure what to do with favored enemy bonuses and Bane weapons.
While the switch to supernatural keeps Wildshape from being interuptable and dispellable it also, well, makes it undispellable. Undispellable buffs are pretty powerful. -- House rule 1: Break enchantment can possibly end a wildshape through the end transmutation clause (subject to caster level check). Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel cannot. Mages Disjunction ends it.
The change to polymorph which grants creature type boggles the mind. Especially given the number of abilities that were shifted from special qualities to being a factor of type - most notably the Plant type. Wildshape didn't have plant as a standard option in 3.0 and then added it in 3.5 plus the gaining type aspect. Undispellable buffs covering a long list of effects = unbalancing in my book.
It also adds the element of animal buffs enhancing the druid. Most of these are better than buffs for human types and stack with the already substantial boost from Wildshape. -- House rule 2: Polymorph and thus Wildshape do not grant type. -- not sure what to do with favored enemy bonuses and Bane weapons.
Actually I have found that the new Summon Natures Ally list(with the elementals), the spontaneuous casting of Summon Natures Ally, the non-melding of magic-items, and the easy access to Natural Spell to be the problems.
Wall of Thorns is also a bit too powerful.
Here are some things I have thought of doing...
1) No non-melding of equipment
2) You must pick only one type of elemental that you can summon
3) All spells cast with Natural Spell are a full round action
4) Wall of Thorns, Entanglement, and other spells that require strength checks to move allow for a size bonus (e.g. +4 for Large, +8 for Huge etc). Maybe even lower the Strength DC to 15 for Wall of Thorns.
Wall of Thorns is also a bit too powerful.
Here are some things I have thought of doing...
1) No non-melding of equipment
2) You must pick only one type of elemental that you can summon
3) All spells cast with Natural Spell are a full round action
4) Wall of Thorns, Entanglement, and other spells that require strength checks to move allow for a size bonus (e.g. +4 for Large, +8 for Huge etc). Maybe even lower the Strength DC to 15 for Wall of Thorns.
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Old Gumphrey
First Post
This is a pretty big problem IMO. Druids kick all kinds of butt now. For one thing, they just don't need the spontaneous summons. The animal companion is too strong, it's like a really dumb fighter cohort; with all their other benefits it's not like they even need it. If they had poor BAB and cast spells like a bard I could see the need for it; and what's up with their skill points? All other full casters have 2. Plenty of special abilities, the new easy-to-get dragonhide, and Natural Spell is way broken. I don't care what anyone says.
I've been unsure how to fix them for a long time. I think the first steps would be to cut natural spell and spontaneous summoning, then fix how polymorphing works. Rich Burlew has a really nice fix at his site (a little background so you actually look: this guy got 2nd in the campaign contest in which Eberron took 1st and has several monsters being published in the upcoming MM3).
I've been unsure how to fix them for a long time. I think the first steps would be to cut natural spell and spontaneous summoning, then fix how polymorphing works. Rich Burlew has a really nice fix at his site (a little background so you actually look: this guy got 2nd in the campaign contest in which Eberron took 1st and has several monsters being published in the upcoming MM3).
zoroaster100
First Post
Old Gumphrey said:
I just read this alternate rule for shapechanging and it looks awsome! I really hope that WOTC adopts something like this for the next (and hopefully final) version of polymorphing an shapechanging. Maybe for D&D 4th edition...?
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
I would make Natural Spell a metamagic feat with a +1 level adjustment in order to make it meaningful. Otherwise the feat is a no brainer for druids and they have no reason NOT to take it... it is just so good.
DSC-EricPrice
First Post
Its definitely a difficult balance to achieve. On the one hand 3.0 druids had precious too few wildshapes per day before, particularly given they could be disrupted or dispelled. Now we've swung to the other extreme with the supernatural and type aspects of the new rules set.
To me, personally, the magic should be dispellable. It is invoked with magic and should be dispelleable as such. We even went so far in our upcoming Guardians of the Underhalls book to allow rival druids to effectively "counterspell" another druid's attempt to shift by invoking the same natural divine magic being employed to assume the shape. We stick with the original 3.0 rules for disruptability and Ex vs. Su status. We made the supernatural version of the transition part of a shifting prestige class (with nigh complete loss of spells and typical druid abilities).
Whenever rules like this slip by I always attribute it to the fact so few people actually PLAY druids to begin with, let alone spend enough time playing them to find all the ways you can tweak them.
We toyed around with the idea of limiting the shifted time to 10 minutes per level.
We also toyed around with the idea of giving ability bonuses to stat scores based on the form and size taken rather than just taking them out of the appropriate source book, but we could never make a system that wasnt time intensive and unwieldy.
Right now weve been discussing the possibility of giving the druid the decision at "casting time". Shorter times (1 min per level) gets you supernatural and typed transformation. Longer times (1 hour per level) gets you the old 3.0 standby. What are your thoughts on that?
One thing I would remind DMs and rule makers alike about. The rules are QUITE clear that the animal (or other type if it is eventually gained) must be one FAMILIAR to the Druid. To me, that gets rid of a lot of the argument about the monster manuals breeding potential problems into the system.
To me, personally, the magic should be dispellable. It is invoked with magic and should be dispelleable as such. We even went so far in our upcoming Guardians of the Underhalls book to allow rival druids to effectively "counterspell" another druid's attempt to shift by invoking the same natural divine magic being employed to assume the shape. We stick with the original 3.0 rules for disruptability and Ex vs. Su status. We made the supernatural version of the transition part of a shifting prestige class (with nigh complete loss of spells and typical druid abilities).
Whenever rules like this slip by I always attribute it to the fact so few people actually PLAY druids to begin with, let alone spend enough time playing them to find all the ways you can tweak them.
We toyed around with the idea of limiting the shifted time to 10 minutes per level.
We also toyed around with the idea of giving ability bonuses to stat scores based on the form and size taken rather than just taking them out of the appropriate source book, but we could never make a system that wasnt time intensive and unwieldy.
Right now weve been discussing the possibility of giving the druid the decision at "casting time". Shorter times (1 min per level) gets you supernatural and typed transformation. Longer times (1 hour per level) gets you the old 3.0 standby. What are your thoughts on that?
One thing I would remind DMs and rule makers alike about. The rules are QUITE clear that the animal (or other type if it is eventually gained) must be one FAMILIAR to the Druid. To me, that gets rid of a lot of the argument about the monster manuals breeding potential problems into the system.
frankthedm
First Post
Natural spell doesn't stike me as too powerful [but most NPCs make spellcasters target #1 when found IMG] .
Putting the dire wolf on the level 3 list does seem over the top.
The Wild armor enchantment, which lets the armor remain effective in the wild shape, is a real danger. As mentioned Dragonhide...ewww.
I would say just use the 3.0 druid and let the player try to justify the individual changes s/he wants.
Wild Shape (Su): At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the polymorph spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.
The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with.
A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.)
A druid can use this ability more times per day at 6th, 7th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level, as noted on Table: The Druid. In addition, she gains the ability to take the shape of a Large animal at 8th level, a Tiny animal at 11th level, and a Huge animal at 15th level. The new form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the character’s druid level.
At 12th level, a druid becomes able to use wild shape to change into a plant creature with the same size restrictions as for animal forms. (A druid can’t use this ability to take the form of a plant that isn’t a creature.)
At 16th level, a druid becomes able to use wild shape to change into a Small, Medium, or Large elemental (air, earth, fire, or water) once per day. These elemental forms are in addition to her normal wild shape usage. In addition to the normal effects of wild shape, the druid gains all the elemental’s extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities. She also gains the elemental’s feats for as long as she maintains the wild shape, but she retains her own creature type.
At 18th level, a druid becomes able to assume elemental form twice per day, and at 20th level she can do so three times per day. At 20th level, a druid may use this wild shape ability to change into a Huge elemental.
Putting the dire wolf on the level 3 list does seem over the top.
The Wild armor enchantment, which lets the armor remain effective in the wild shape, is a real danger. As mentioned Dragonhide...ewww.
I would say just use the 3.0 druid and let the player try to justify the individual changes s/he wants.
Wild Shape (Su): At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the polymorph spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.
The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with.
A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.)
A druid can use this ability more times per day at 6th, 7th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level, as noted on Table: The Druid. In addition, she gains the ability to take the shape of a Large animal at 8th level, a Tiny animal at 11th level, and a Huge animal at 15th level. The new form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the character’s druid level.
At 12th level, a druid becomes able to use wild shape to change into a plant creature with the same size restrictions as for animal forms. (A druid can’t use this ability to take the form of a plant that isn’t a creature.)
At 16th level, a druid becomes able to use wild shape to change into a Small, Medium, or Large elemental (air, earth, fire, or water) once per day. These elemental forms are in addition to her normal wild shape usage. In addition to the normal effects of wild shape, the druid gains all the elemental’s extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities. She also gains the elemental’s feats for as long as she maintains the wild shape, but she retains her own creature type.
At 18th level, a druid becomes able to assume elemental form twice per day, and at 20th level she can do so three times per day. At 20th level, a druid may use this wild shape ability to change into a Huge elemental.
Old Gumphrey
First Post
DSC-EricPrice said:
Except that in 3.5 all it takes is a take 10 on knowledge (nature) to be familiar with any animal in the books (as long as you can beat their HD + 10 DC which is laughable unless you have a terrible Int score). So if you actually bother keeping up with your knowledge (nature) ranks (and with 4 skills per level, this is incredibly easy) you're pretty much automatically familiar with all animals. Not exactly a stretch of the imagination, but I hardly see that sentence as a real drawback to someone with very extensive knowledge in the field.
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Liquidsabre
Explorer
I don't if knowledge of necessarily means familiarity with in this case. I can study an animal on the page but until I see it in person, watch the way it moves, acts, etc.. I am not familiar with it.
I'd like to see Druid's possess a sort of favored terrain at 1st level (forest, mountains, plains, aquatic, underground, etc.) and be familiar with all the animals from said terrain and at later levels may select another terrain to be familiar with.
I'd like to see Druid's possess a sort of favored terrain at 1st level (forest, mountains, plains, aquatic, underground, etc.) and be familiar with all the animals from said terrain and at later levels may select another terrain to be familiar with.
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