"Fixing" d20 Modern - The Definitive Thread

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

There have been a lot of threads on d20 Modern in the past.
A lot of people have ideas and issues with the game system, but like other aspects, and I think there have been quite a few threads about it already..

I am currently playing in a d20 Modern online campaign set in a post-apocalyptic world. (If you're interested and understand German, the gamemaster has his own blog: TheClone | Das herzliche Rollenspielblog)

I like where the campaign is going, but nobody seems quite content with the game system itself. A lot of combats we had were basically exchanges of bullets with little more tactics and variety than moving between covers, and a lot of (bad) luck involved to actually come to an end.

So, last weekend we were discussing alternatives, like Savage Worlds or Star Wars Saga. Another option was house-ruling d20 Modern. Well, I got a little carried away with it this weekend and ended up with a lot of material, which I am talking a little about in my own blog
(Note: I have talked about "4Eiizing" d20 Modern before. This is, mostly, not that take.)

But before getting carried away even further - what do you people think are d20 Modern biggest issues? Where does it need improvement?

My take currently focuses mostly on a few things:

- Talents are bland and boring.
- Action Points are underused.
- Combat Options are lacking or are very feat-intensive.

Other things I observed:
- Reputation seems to be mostly ignored.
- Wealth is often considered a good idea implemented badly.

So, what's your take? What would you add to the list? How would you expect it to change? How do you feel do (d20?) alternatives (Modern 20, True 20, Spycraft) do these things better - and where do they fail?

 

[ValhallaGH]

I agree with your lists and would add:
- NPCs are too good. Mook gang-bangers that don't even get a name are as good or better than SWAT-trained PCs. Largely this is because the Elite Array was applied to everything.
- Guns are too anemic. They rarely, if ever, come close to dropping a foe in one attack; I'm okay with them rarely dropping a PC, but PCs are more likely to be dropped in one shot than the nameless mooks.
- Flying Kicks kill tanks. ... That just makes my brain hurt.
- Not enough skill points. It takes about 13 levels to become a well-rounded adventurer, and with that build you've got maybe one skill that's close to max ranks.
- Not enough feats. Given the feat-intensive nature of the system, there are not enough feats (not even over 20 levels) to fulfill the base concept of a chracter and spend a few on additional proficiencies or combat options.
- Poor Class definition. The classes are very poorly described and defined, which has lead to much player confusion. Mapping them to problem-solving style (which they are), or archetype (which they are not), or combat style (which they are not) would go a long way towards fixing that.

There are other issues that I have but those are the ones that I always remember and haven't already been mentioned.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I would actually say the number of feats is okay, it's just that there are too many feats required to get some base ability. Firearms Proficiency could just be part of the general Simple Weapon Proficiency. Light Armor Proficiency could also be free (how much training do you really need to "use" a kevlar vest?)

Some feats could be merged - Point Blank Shot + Precise Shot for example don't really need to be separate in my opinion. (Better use Precise Shot for something like a ranged power attack).

 

[Greg K]

For Action Points, I would look at Mutants and Masterminds 2e Hero Points (and Complications).

 

[Armadillo]

So, last weekend we were discussing alternatives, like Savage Worlds or Star Wars Saga. Another option was house-ruling d20 Modern.

Star Wars Saga is what put an end to my house-ruling d20M, and Savage Worlds is now my go to game.

- Talents are bland and boring.
- Action Points are underused.
- Combat Options are lacking or are very feat-intensive.

Other things I observed:
- Reputation seems to be mostly ignored.
- Wealth is often considered a good idea implemented badly.

I like the talent system, with additional talents from d20 Future and the d20M Companion. Still, I like the talents from Star Wars Saga even better.

Yes as to action points. This was the first thing that I house-ruled. Star Wars Saga is again useful here.

I like the Wealth system, but the GM and players have to work to integrate it into the narrative of the game.

I think that the issue more one of too many core classes than two few skill points. Well, that and too many skills. [insert standard skill consolidation comment here] One of the real problems with the skills is that the limited class skills available often require some odd builds so that you are able to qualify for an advanced class. I favor a tighter list of classes, with more descriptive names: Warrior [Strong], Rogue [Fast/Charismatic], Stalwart [Dedicated/Tough], Thinker [Smart].

A shorter list of core classes will also help to avoid the +0 BAB problem, which occurs when a character multiclasses with three classes that all begin with +0 BAB. The other way to deal with the +0 BAB problem is by tracking fractional BAB as described in Unearthed Arcana.

I also favor slimming down the number of feats, particularly ones that are mostly there as prereqs for other feats.

EDIT: Oh, and add in Pathfinder's CMB/CMD.

 

[Vigilance]

These threads are hard for me, because my knee-jerk reaction is to point folks at Modern20, which I wrote to take d20 Modern (along with a more than generous dose of True20) to make a modern game I and my players found more satisfying.

In general, I think d20 Modern suffers from trying to make guns "balanced". If you look at a lot of the useless feats they require folks to take to use firearms and be good at them, along with the base damage of guns, they made guns about as good as other options, and actually worse than some, such as the magic-user's spells and some of the martial artist abilities.

It's almost a textbook example of how trying to make all options equally valid can suck the life right out of a game.

I think accepting the fact that any fun, modern game should make "cinematic" its default state, avoiding magic, and letting guns be what they should be (a really terrifying option that, in general, should be a part of any modern warrior's arsenal) you get a game that's more satisfying, to me anyway.

Also, and I've said this numerous times before, modern combat should feel different than D&D. Folks should have a different experience playing d20 Modern than D&D, or what's the point.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I found it ridicilous how long it takes to really make guns an interesting option in combat. We are at level 6 in the aforementioned campaign and all we can do is basically shoot a single bullet at one opponent per round (well, one could try autofire, if we had automatic weapons).
In D&D 3E, a Fighter could Power Attack and Cleave and Trip at that time (at least if he wanted - yet he would probably still complain about too little feats). In D&D 4, he would have 2-3 at-wills, 2 encounter attacks and 2 daily attacks.

Just rolling to hit and rolling damage doesn't cut it, especially not if you have to do it over 10 rounds of combat.

Generally, d20 Modern takes too long to get you "interesting" abilities. And... there aren't really all that many of them, either. Again - the talents are mostly bland.

 

[The Black Kestrel]

As an author of one of those what to fix in d20 Modern threads, I thought I'd chime in with a couple of thoughts.

Class system. While I like the six classes themed around the ability scores, they need some improvement. Which segues nicely into my next set of problems:

Skills/Skill Points. 4 per class level minimum. Skill consolidation is required as well.

BAB. Another good BAB class is needed (Tough Hero gets my vote). I also
agree that the +0 BAB is an issue. I say fractional BAB is probably the best fix, but a more elegant way is needed to explain it.

Feats. More feats per level (every level ala Pathfinder works). Consolidation of some feats as well as more ranged feats that are weapon neutral (thinking of a couple of the PF ranges feats like Deadly Aim).

Talents. Talents are BLAND! SWSE set the new standard for talent design.

Occupations. Occupations need more feats. This would help solve some of the problems associated with starting characters not feeling heroic enough/not being able to accomplish what the player wants.

 

[delericho]

d20 Modern could do well to learn a lot from SWSE (as SWSE no doubt learned from d20 Modern). I'd be inclined to reduce the number of classes to four (essentially drop Tough and Wise heroes), and expand all the classes to cover the full level range, as in SWSE.

I might well also consider dropping Alliegances and Occupations entirely - these seem a bit too fiddly for a bit too little gain. And I'd probably rewrite Wealth - either just use a 'real' monetary system, or even use the 'system' in "Monte Cook's World of Darkness" - characters get whatever gear the player and GM agree he 'should' have.

And I would definitely agree about consolidating skills, but that's now standard, isn't it? I'm not so sure about boosting skill points across the board, though - if the skill list is about the same as SWSE, I might be inclined to give the Strong hero 3 per level, the Fast and Charismatic heroes 5, and the Smart hero 7.

 

[ronin]

I like the D20 Modern game quite a bit but it could use a bit of an overhaul. I have read SWSE and it appears to have some good mechanics. I planned to use it for my next modern game until I read about this-

Game Design: "e20: System Evolved" Roleplaying Game — Kickstarter

The designer putting this project together was involved with SWSE for quite a long time and I like alot of what I see so far being discussed on the boards here-

GMSarli Games • Index page

Anyone interested should feel free to join the discussions. There is still just under 2 months to reach the $10,000 goal and it will be interesting to see how it develops.