"Fixing" d20 Modern - The Definitive Thread
I used to do a lot of extensive houserules for d20 modern.
But it was so hard to find a group to play regular modern, or even D&D that I stopped more or less a couple years ago. Of course I also stopped gaming as well.
I always wanted to add elements from the 3.5e Tome of Battle: Book of 9 swords, combined with a switch to a W/VP variant, making feats more interesting, etc.
But it was so hard to find a group to play regular modern, or even D&D that I stopped more or less a couple years ago. Of course I also stopped gaming as well.
I always wanted to add elements from the 3.5e Tome of Battle: Book of 9 swords, combined with a switch to a W/VP variant, making feats more interesting, etc.
pawsplay
Hero
My last real involvement with d20Modern was with Dawning Star, pretty much for reasons stated above. Actions Points are weak, Talents are bland and uneven, characters start with two few feats (the "fighters" often have to burn a feat for Personal Firearms Proficiency at 1st level!), and the classes don't provide clear distinctions. moving away from minutae (Pathfinderizing the skill list, and so forth) the big design priorities for me would be:
- Either reworking the base classes or jettisoning them for general but more archetypally focused ones (like Soldier could be a base class). Adventure! and Spycraft sort of show the way here if you wanted to move away from the basic 6
- Each Occupation and each base class should grant one more feat, that way you could play a US Marine or a ninja at 1st level. The typical D&D class gets the equivalent of about six starting feats, compared to about two to three for a d20 modern character.
- Consolidate less-used firearms options into fewer feats, or open them up as general combat options with feats granting Improved versions. Fantasy Craft and Spycraft have some good examples, as well as the Tactical Feats from Complete Warrior as a template.
- Designate an opponent tier below Ordinary that gets minimum hp, gets the non-elite array, and is limited in other respects (can't normally critically hit would be a good start)- D&D 4e and Fantasy Craft show the way here.
- d20 already has a defense bonus built into classes, but there should be some feats to beaf up unarmored AC.
- Action Point reform - you could probably borrow the version from the Pathfinder APG. At least, they should be potent, renewable, and do more than fuel anemic class abilities and offer uninspiring bonuses on rolls.
- Either reworking the base classes or jettisoning them for general but more archetypally focused ones (like Soldier could be a base class). Adventure! and Spycraft sort of show the way here if you wanted to move away from the basic 6
- Each Occupation and each base class should grant one more feat, that way you could play a US Marine or a ninja at 1st level. The typical D&D class gets the equivalent of about six starting feats, compared to about two to three for a d20 modern character.
- Consolidate less-used firearms options into fewer feats, or open them up as general combat options with feats granting Improved versions. Fantasy Craft and Spycraft have some good examples, as well as the Tactical Feats from Complete Warrior as a template.
- Designate an opponent tier below Ordinary that gets minimum hp, gets the non-elite array, and is limited in other respects (can't normally critically hit would be a good start)- D&D 4e and Fantasy Craft show the way here.
- d20 already has a defense bonus built into classes, but there should be some feats to beaf up unarmored AC.
- Action Point reform - you could probably borrow the version from the Pathfinder APG. At least, they should be potent, renewable, and do more than fuel anemic class abilities and offer uninspiring bonuses on rolls.
Steel_Wind
Legend
I also think that the problems with d20 Modern were largely all fixed in Star Wars: Saga Edition. SW:SE is in almost every respect a vastly better system.
As between them, I would take SW:SE where SW:SE and d20Modern rules were in conflict.
The universal condition track implemented in SW:SE is one of its best mechanics and I think it will work GREAT in a d20Modern/Future setting.
This is not a small point, as the cover rules and movement rules in SW:SE make for a significantly more dynamic game in terms of fire and movement and the effect of grenades in the game. This is especially so where you have people flipping over tables and taking cover -- and can then use the target cover options in SW:SE to target the table the foes is behind to take out his cover -- then go after him.
And I agree with the suggestion to incorporate CMB/CMD from Pathfinder. A1. I'd be inclined to keep the Skill Challenge system presented in Galaxy of Intrigue, too -- though this may not be to everyone's liking or expectations.
However, I do foresee a problem with going with Action Points by hijacking the Force Point and, potentially, Destiny Point system from SW:SE for that purpose.
"Force point" mechanics are probably okay to use for an Action Point system, but Destiny Points, on the other hand, can lead your gameplay into areas you simply may not want to visit.
Destiny points are an automatic hit or an automatic miss on essentially everything in the game. While they can be countered by Destiny Points available to a heroic villain, by using them, the inevitable result is that your game will become a LOT more cinematic with Destincy Points than it will without it.
This may suit the expectations of the players and the GM completely. If so - GREAT. No problem.
But if someone is looking for a more grim n gritty d20 Modern game, then leaving the Force Point (possibly) and the Destiny Point mechanic (certainly) out of the game is probably best.
It all depends on the type of game you are looking for.
As between them, I would take SW:SE where SW:SE and d20Modern rules were in conflict.
The universal condition track implemented in SW:SE is one of its best mechanics and I think it will work GREAT in a d20Modern/Future setting.
This is not a small point, as the cover rules and movement rules in SW:SE make for a significantly more dynamic game in terms of fire and movement and the effect of grenades in the game. This is especially so where you have people flipping over tables and taking cover -- and can then use the target cover options in SW:SE to target the table the foes is behind to take out his cover -- then go after him.
And I agree with the suggestion to incorporate CMB/CMD from Pathfinder. A1. I'd be inclined to keep the Skill Challenge system presented in Galaxy of Intrigue, too -- though this may not be to everyone's liking or expectations.
However, I do foresee a problem with going with Action Points by hijacking the Force Point and, potentially, Destiny Point system from SW:SE for that purpose.
"Force point" mechanics are probably okay to use for an Action Point system, but Destiny Points, on the other hand, can lead your gameplay into areas you simply may not want to visit.
Destiny points are an automatic hit or an automatic miss on essentially everything in the game. While they can be countered by Destiny Points available to a heroic villain, by using them, the inevitable result is that your game will become a LOT more cinematic with Destincy Points than it will without it.
This may suit the expectations of the players and the GM completely. If so - GREAT. No problem.
But if someone is looking for a more grim n gritty d20 Modern game, then leaving the Force Point (possibly) and the Destiny Point mechanic (certainly) out of the game is probably best.
It all depends on the type of game you are looking for.
Steel_Wind
Legend
Not so far.
I honestly hope Pathfinder would not be used to create a future game or modern setting. I think SW:SE's base ruleset is far better at achieving that sort of gameplay than Pathfinder is.
Now, if Owen K. Stephen's plan all along was to "Saga Editionize" Pathfinder for its d20Future/Modern version under the OGL -- then I take all that back.
To date, however, that intention was never made expressly clear to me, and never has been.
Gary Sarli's efforts, on the other hand, were clearly more aimed at renovating the SW:SE's mechanics into a more fulsome modern/future RPG system under the OGL.
Ghost2020
Adventurer
My own personal house rules...
Guns get the short end of the stick in d20 modern.
Why does it take so long to become proficient with a submachine gun? Any other game system this is not an issue.
I just made the firearms and advanced firearms the only two needed to do strafe and auto fire, etc. Double Tap comes with basic firearms proficiency.
It just made more sense.
Otherwise it takes so long before one can use a gun effectively.
Plus the massive damage threshold rules are fun. Lots of crazy messed up gun fights. Seems to run pretty well too.
Guns get the short end of the stick in d20 modern.
Why does it take so long to become proficient with a submachine gun? Any other game system this is not an issue.
I just made the firearms and advanced firearms the only two needed to do strafe and auto fire, etc. Double Tap comes with basic firearms proficiency.
It just made more sense.
Otherwise it takes so long before one can use a gun effectively.
Plus the massive damage threshold rules are fun. Lots of crazy messed up gun fights. Seems to run pretty well too.
pawsplay
Hero
I think both have their nuggets, and both are also severely flawed. Probably the best d20 modern game put out for a modern+ setting was Star Wars Revised Core Rulebook, although it too had some ugly quirks.
Zhaleskra
Adventurer
As someone who thinks Forbidden Kingdoms is a better d20 Modern than d20 Modern is, you can probably guess my next sentence, and I'll say it anyway. Get a Forbidden Kingdoms, both the hardcover and the PDF, and problem solved.
Burning feats to pull the trigger 2-3 times? Nope.
Burning feats to use autofire? Nope.
Skills to make you better with specific types of firearms? Yes. Sure it's +1 BAB/5 ranks, but still. There's also a similar skill for your unarmed attacks.
Know why? Because these are functions of the gun, not functions of your character.
Skill & Feats psionics.
Magic, while present, isn't an "it just works" deal.
"mini-feats" martial arts.
Burning feats to pull the trigger 2-3 times? Nope.
Burning feats to use autofire? Nope.
Skills to make you better with specific types of firearms? Yes. Sure it's +1 BAB/5 ranks, but still. There's also a similar skill for your unarmed attacks.
Know why? Because these are functions of the gun, not functions of your character.
Skill & Feats psionics.
Magic, while present, isn't an "it just works" deal.
"mini-feats" martial arts.
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Patryn of Elvenshae
First Post
Now I know you're just having a go at us.
RCR? Eek. It only works if you expect more than half of your starting party to never make it to the end of the campaign.
I'll take the power system and skill system over Saga any day.
As for a d20 system for modern, I'll take True20. However, d20Modern with
a. Green Ronin's Psychic's Handbook replacing mental fx
b. EN Publishing's Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth replacing magic fx
c. RPGObject's Blood and Fists for Martial Arts
D. D&D Unearthed Arcana's Death and Dying Rules
also work pretty well for me (Talents still need some reworking).
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