Fixing Metamagic?

[Plane Sailing]

I've read a number of well thought out complaints about the metamagic system, and one of the most common (and highly placed) ones is that metamagic costs you twice - once when you purchase the feat and again every time you want to use it because it costs a higher level spell slot.

I've been doing a bit of thinking about this, and it occurs to me that there is a possible solution which would make metamagic feats much more useful and certainly much more frequently used, taking a leaf out of the "empower ability" etc feats which were introduced in the MM.

Basically, applying a metamagic feat to a spell *doesn't* increase the level of the spell. The limiting factor is that you can only metamagic a feat that is x levels lower than your highest level spell you can cast.

Thus a 1st level wizard (max level 1 spells) could extend one of his level0 cantrips, but couldn't apply any metamagic to his 1st level spells.

A 3rd level wizard could extend his level 2 spells, and empower his level 1 spells, but could only maximise his level 0 cantrips.

A 9th level wizard (max level 5 spells) could have all his 1st level spells quickened, or maximised + extended.

This system would allow casters to ultimately have all their low level spells (and potentially all except their very highest level spells) changed by metamagic - but would that be a bad thing? After all, a fighter could use expertise or power attack in every combat should he so choose

What do you think about this. Too much? Too little? About right?

Cheers

 

[Li Shenron]

A 3rd level wizard could extend his level 2 spells, and empower his level 1 spells, but could only maximise his level 0 cantrips.

I think you meant 5th level Wiz... however, in short the variant you propose it terribly powerful! Having ALL your spells doubled in duration except the highest level ones is worth much more than a feat, IMHO.

If you really want to use this variant, at least make a rule that you can only apply one metamagic to a single spell, and that you should decide at preparation which to apply, not at casting time. It would still be very very strong... especially with Quicken Spell, Empower Spell, Maximise Spell and Widen Spell, plus many others from accessory books.

 

[Chacal]

The standard way has also a built-in limitation of the number of spells that can be metamagicked, because a caster usually has less high level slots than low level slots. While I like the "no additional penalty" in your version, I feel that
having a feat affect nearly all your spells cast is a big change.
Let's look at a wiz 5 (with 14 int)
standard: can cast 1 empowered magic missile and 0 fireball
your version: can cast 4 empowered magic missile and 1 fireball

I'd be more happy with something in between, like 1 emp mm and 1 fireball.


I'll think about it later ...


Chacal

 

[Li Shenron]

I don't remember if the following variant is in UA or somewhere else, however it gives an example of what you can do to make metamagic easier to do on-the-fly and slightly more powerful.

You prepare spells normally without applying metamagic at this time.
When you cast a spell, you can choose at casting time to apply one metamagic feat that you know; doing so "burns" another spell slot of level equal (or higher) of the metamagic cost in level increase.

Example: you can Extend a spell during casting time by spending another slot of level 1 or higher.

The cost is lesser, because in general one slot of level N is more valuable than two slots whose sum is N, but not free like your case

 

[glass]

I don't remember if the following variant is in UA or somewhere else, however it gives an example of what you can do to make metamagic easier to do on-the-fly and slightly more powerful.

You prepare spells normally without applying metamagic at this time.
When you cast a spell, you can choose at casting time to apply one metamagic feat that you know; doing so "burns" another spell slot of level equal (or higher) of the metamagic cost in level increase.

Example: you can Extend a spell during casting time by spending another slot of level 1 or higher.

The cost is lesser, because in general one slot of level N is more valuable than two slots whose sum is N, but not free like your case

I think you might be thinking of Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed. In that, most of the metamagic feats use another slot of the same level (they call it ladening).

You can only laden a spell once, so you can only apply one metamagic feat per casting in AU.

Some of the feats (I'm thinking quicken here) also have limited uses per day. Many of the D&D metamagic feats are combined into Modify Spell (only one function per casting).


glass.

 

[glass]

In answer to the original question: I like the idea. It would make metamagic more attractive, and simplify bookkeeping for vancian casters (how many times has my wizard prepared to many spells of a level because I had forgotten to count lower level metamagicked spells? too many).

However, I am a bit concerned about high level casters quickening every spell of 5th level or lower (except those they make persistent!).

Maybe the better metamagic could require ladening as described above, or require a longer casting time, or both. It might also be an idea to add one to all the modifiers (primarily to limit those feats with a zero modifier).

Any ideas what to do about heighten spell?


glass.

 

[Kyamsil]

The Empower/Quicken Spell-like Ability feats have a limiting factor not only on the fact that it is applied to a single spell-like ability, but they are usable 3/day (or less if you have less uses per day of the spell-like ability) and you must be a caster level high enough that you could use the Empower Spell or Quicken Spell feat in the first place (by having spell slots of high enough level to account for the level adjustment of the feat).

So, to fix Metamagic the way you are saying it should be something like: You can use the metamagic feat "on the fly" (removing the full-round action as happens to spontaneous casters) 3/day. The level of the spell is not affected, but you must have a caster level high enough to have spell slots of the modified level.

That is, a 5th level caster with empower spell could have 3 empowered magic missiles each day, but he could not empower a fireball.

I think that D&D could benefit from a change on the spellcasting and magic system that went in a way similar to the new Revised Psionic Handbook: spells with augmentations, point based, psionic focus and some extra points to apply metapsionic, player controlled amount of damage with powers by spending extra points instead of level based damage...

 

[Plane Sailing]

I don't want to make metamagic available on the fly to casters who prepare spells, it should be limited to spontaneous casters IMO - the one big benefit sorcerers get.

Kyamsil - the 3/day limitation in the MM source is interesting (apart from that didn't you repeat what I proposed?).

I don't like "per day" limitations personally - it seems too artificial and gamist to me.

The AU "ladening" of spells is another good solution, I'd forgotten about that.



Although allowing a high level wizard to quicken all his low level spells sounds bad, I think it compares quite well with the situation in 3.0 haste where the wizard had effectively got quicking of *any* his spells. I think that the 3.5e fix to haste was necessary (it used to be too good) but unfortunately I find wizards slightly behind the power curve now. I think this could bring things up to par (also would fit neatly with the way that the schism power in the XPH works now)

Thanks for the input guys

 

[Plane Sailing]

Heighten spell is the only one that I would leave genuinely taking up a higher level spell slot. It should probably have an additional benefit though, otherwise nobody will take it just for the extra DC boost.

 

[Kyamsil]

Kyamsil - the 3/day limitation in the MM source is interesting (apart from that didn't you repeat what I proposed?).

Oops, my bad... didn't notice that you meant the same. I must have missed that part, sorry. Yes, my proposal is the same as yours (same spell level but can't apply it if you don't have slots of modified spell level) but with the 3/day limit that the MM feats have.

About metamagic on the fly only for spontaneous casters... could be. After all, if they didn't have something special like that what's the point of being a sorcerer instead of a wizard? Also, would not make the Sudden metamagic feats from MiHB obsolete.