Fixing Metamagic?

[ARandomGod]

I don't want to make metamagic available on the fly to casters who prepare spells, it should be limited to spontaneous casters IMO - the one big benefit sorcerers get.
Thanks for the input guys

Ha!
Now, actually, THIS is one of my biggest complaints.
Basically, I believe that any non-spontaneous caster is a complete fool for ever learning a metamagic feat. Ever. Any. Under any circumstance.
For, as written, you've just wasted a feat in that case.

Now, every time a spontanious caster takes a metamagic feat he's doubled the number of spells he knows... admittedly mainly in the higher level area.


But a spellcaster who prepares spells... he's just too lazy to write down the spells he's just spent an entire feat researching.
Whereas, really, why didn't he research those spells in the first place? Reasearch 'em, write 'em down, and there they are. Same spells, same casting ability, one extra feat for you to spend on something worthwhile.

 

[Terath Ninir]

Basically, I believe that any non-spontaneous caster is a complete fool for ever learning a metamagic feat.

When I first read this sentance, I thought you were being a chuckleheaded yahoo. But, seeing the entirety of your argument, I have to agree with you. If you research a higher level version of a spell -- like greater fireball, say -- it's likely to have *better* effects than a metamagiced spell. After all, if you make it fit the spell level, it will likely have more damage *and* a greater area, not just one or the other.

So, while you threw me there at the beginning, I have to agree you're right. I'd rather blow money and time on new spells than blow a feat, any day. You are truly wise, oh Random one.

 

[Sir Whiskers]

I don't like "per day" limitations personally - it seems too artificial and gamist to me.

While I agree such limits are artificial, some kind of limit is necessary, or spellcasters (especially spontaneous casters) get a huge boost from a couple feats - Empower Spell and Quicken Spell.

If you don't want a flat 3/day for a feat, consider the following alternatives:

1. For each metamagic feat the caster has, he can metamagic 3 spell/day.

2. Allow the caster to metamagic one spell per day * his highest spell level for each metamagic feat. In this case, the caster can apply more than one feat to a spell, as you're counting the number of times the feats are used, not the number of spells metamagicked.

3. Allow the caster to metamagic a number of spells per day equal to his level. The number of metamagic feats known does not matter. Only one feat can be applied to any single spell.

4. Allow the caster to apply metamagic feats a number of times per day equal to his level. In this case, the caster can apply more than one feat to a spell, as you're counting the number of times the feats are used, not the number of spells metamagicked.

Examples (using Wiz9 knowing Extend Spell and Empower Spell):

1. Caster can metamagic up to 6 spells per day. Caster can only apply one feat to any single spell.

2. Caster can apply Extend Spell or Empower Spell up to 10 times per day. The caster can apply more than one feat to a single spell, using a daily "charge" of each feat applied.

3. Caster can metamagic a total of 9 spells per day. Only one feat can be applied to any single spell.

4. Caster can apply Extend Spell or Empower Spell up to 9 times (total) per day. The caster can apply more than one feat to a single spell, using a daily "charge" for each feat applied.

 

[Faerl'Elghinn]

IMO, the power level of Metamagic Feats is very apppropriate as written. Any fewer restrictions would cause them to be severely unbalanced, especially after characters attain high enough level to gain access to the Improved Metamagic feat. I know that my epic wizard can seriously abuse many of the feats, Persistent Spell in particular. If you feel that they are currently underpowered, however, you are free to implement any house rules as you see fit IYC.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I ignore epic issues in any of my considerations, it just isn't worth thinking about (if any PCs in my game ever get to 20th+ level I'll create my own epic rules rather than use the dogs breakfast of the ELH. All IMO of course

Sir Whiskers: The issue for me is not rules crunch for doing an x/day limitation, but rather a descriptive reason for such a limitation. Cleave doesn't have a limit per day, nor do most feats. Stunning fist does, but that seems a silliness in the feat - there is no reason given why it could only be used a limited number of times per day. (yes, I know, it is for "balance" purposes. To my mind an x/day limitation is a blunt instrument for balancing an ability and suggests that someone couldn't think of anything better. I want something better )

Cheers

 

[Malcer]

My character is a 17th-level wizard in our Forgotten Realms campaign. We are playing City of the Spiderqueen. I find myself almost never relying on Metamagic Feats and, usually, I rather use my Lesser Rod of Empowerment for direct damage dealing spells than resorting to apply Empowerment when preparing.

My DC are as high as they can get. I started out with 16 Int and with a recently acquired Headband I have 26 INT. I have Spell Foci in Evocation and Transmutation and Archmage capabilities that help me with SR. (Spell Power, Spell Penetration, Robe of the Archmagi). But, if I really want to make a difference against demons or other dangerous critters in this adventure, Enervation has become the standard tactic. I am more or less always forced to bring their saves down before I can damage them.

I'd just not bother doing a Cone of Cold when I could throw an empowered (via Rod) Fireball instead. Energy Resistance and high saves make most damage dealing spells rather inefficient. (apart from the fact that our DM tends to let fights against demons degenerate into dispelling festivals...)

When we start we're allowed to hand in a wishlist and usually receive what we want our characters to have. Well, I never received that Rod of Empowerment that I wished for and because that bugged me, I started thinking about metamagic rods. Compared to the feats, they are so much more powerful and ridiculously cheap.

I proposed the following house rule to my group:

1. You can use each metamagic feat 3 times/day (max) like a metamagic rod.
(each metamagic feat your character has available)

2. For game balance you can do that only once or twice in lower levels.
Example: +1 level feats (Extend, Silent, Still)
1-3 level 1/day
4-6 level 2/day
7-higher 3/day

Example; +2 level feat (Empower)
1-4 level 1/day
5-8 level 2/day
8-higher 3/day

3. You can use only one metamagic feat for free at the same time.

4. The limits from the old system still apply.
Example: you can only empower a fireball if you have 5th-level slots.

5. You could also use the standard version of metamagic, which means that you could simply prepare them as normal.

My DM did not want to test this house rule, so we've abandonend the idea for now. The next time that I will DM, I want to test it though.

The only problems that I see are metamagic feats like Persistent Spell and Quicken Spell. Well, this system represents a big power boost for wizards, but I am convinced that even Fighters could be equipped to have good defenses against magic users under this house rule. (Potion of Energy Resistance, Potion of Protection from Energy, Ring of Blinking etc.)

Being a high-level wizard has a lot of perks. It is really hard to get me. I have extraordinary defense cababilities. But with the damage cabs in place, I need a lot of damage spells to hurt creatures with many hitpoints. Sure, I have other options open, and I use those, but I cannot help to feel a little bit limited in the tactics available.

Thanks for listening and your comments.

-Malcer

 

[Sir Whiskers]

Sir Whiskers: The issue for me is not rules crunch for doing an x/day limitation, but rather a descriptive reason for such a limitation. Cleave doesn't have a limit per day, nor do most feats. Stunning fist does, but that seems a silliness in the feat - there is no reason given why it could only be used a limited number of times per day. (yes, I know, it is for "balance" purposes. To my mind an x/day limitation is a blunt instrument for balancing an ability and suggests that someone couldn't think of anything better. I want something better )

Unfortunately, if you don't like limiting these feats by x/day, you may be back to requiring them to increase spell levels. The feats, as written, are really too good to allow them to be used all the time, any time, just for the cost of a single feat per metamagic ability. IMO, there has to be some sort of limitation.

Some ideas off the top of my head:

You could add an XP or gold cost, but then wizards would be even more loathe to use these feats than they are now.

One possibility is to allow the feats to be used freely, but increase the casting time of any spell using them one step: standard action becomes full round, full round becomes one minute, etc. Of course, I'm not sure what to do with Quicken Spell under this plan, and that's the one I'm most concerned about for balance reasons.

How about this: each time a caster takes a metamagic feat, he can select one spell to apply it to. In effect, he's learned a new spell. Each time the caster levels, he can select another spell for each metamagic feat he knows. The spell(s) selected must be cast-able by the caster, e.g., he can't apply Quicken Spell to magic missile until he's able to cast 5th-level spells. I know this isn't the same as your original idea, but it might be balanced enough to use in play.

One last possibility: create a specific feat chain for metamagic feats, which must be taken in order. Once selected, the feat can be applied (with no level increase) to any spell known by the caster (of the correct level, of course). This way you could limit the best metamagic feats to higher-level casters, minimizing their impact.

As for rationales, I can think of quite a few for any of these possibilities, so I don't think it would be difficult to explain these limits in terms of the campaign setting. (For instance, a feat chain could be explained the same way as different spell levels: some effects are more difficult to master than others).

 

[Prothall]

I think it's already been mentioned, but I think this is not quite the same as a variant in Dragon that I saw. It allowed you to use any metamagic feat once a day on any spell you could normally have applied it to; seemed reasonable enough to me. Standard metamagic really is rather worthless.

 

[Kyamsil]

Some more ideas that come to mind. Most of them can be applied together.

Force a spellcaster to learn metamagic feats in increasing levels of power: To learn a metamagic feat that adds +2 to level he has first to know one that adds +1 to level (could start by requiring one of +0 level at your option). Also, you can't learn a metamagic feat if you are not high enough level to apply them to your 1st level spells.

You can limit the number of daily uses depending on level. You can apply metamagic feats of a certain level adjustment a number of times per day equal to your max spell level - the level adjustment of the metamagic feat. So, a 9th level wizard can apply 5 level+0 metamagic, 4 level+1, 3 level+2, 2 level+3 and 1 level+4 each day. Of course, as is the case with spells, you can use a metamagic slot of higher level for a lower level metamagic feat (for example use one of your level+2 slots to cast an Extended spell.

You can use a mechanic similar to the one that the Incantatrix prestige class uses for some of her class abilities. Give the caster the option of either use the standard metamagic feats and rules (higher level slots, full-round action for spontaneous casters and so on. Give each caster 3+primary ability bonus times per day the option of applying a metamagic feat "on the fly" with a successful Spellcraft check. DC would be 18+3xmodified spell level.

 

[Plane Sailing]

How about this: each time a caster takes a metamagic feat, he can select one spell to apply it to. In effect, he's learned a new spell. Each time the caster levels, he can select another spell for each metamagic feat he knows. The spell(s) selected must be cast-able by the caster, e.g., he can't apply Quicken Spell to magic missile until he's able to cast 5th-level spells. I know this isn't the same as your original idea, but it might be balanced enough to use in play.

I particularly like this idea - it would give much less general utility (being fixed to just one spell), but the overall utility is nice.

A slightly less restrictive variant might be to base it on the less-used "spell mastery" - either indirectly ("when you select a metamagic feat pick 3+bonus spells to have it automatically applied to") or directly ("any spells you have selected with Spell Mastery are automatically affected by the metamagic feat you have chosen"). If the latter was used there has to be an equivalent "Sorcererous mastery" feat for spontaneous casters. I think I lean towards the first of these two options, with the level proviso that you mentioned. I'll float that past my players and see what they think.

Cheers