Fixing paladin 'stickiness'

[Kzach]

For those of us who do think the paladin lacks stickiness, I was thinking of a way to fix this and thought that adding a slow element to their mark might be plausible.

Eliminate the radiant damage component (helping the MAD issue as well) and simply make it that whomever they use their Divine Challenge against is slowed until the end of the paladin's next turn.

This would certainly discourage enemies from moving away when it serves so little a purpose to do so.

Any other suggestions or fixes would be welcome.

 

[Omnifarious Grey]

Care to explain the big issue with the paladin's mark? I mean I've always seen it as incentive for enemies to not to hit others because of provoking opportunity attack, getting a -2 to the attack, and then also taking damage always seemed to me as enough incentive for smart monsters to avoid leaving to attack others.

 

[FireLance]

Perhaps this could be an alternate challenge for Strength-based paladins? If the challenged target starts its turn adjacent to the paladin, it is slowed and cannot shift? This way, it has to take an OA (which should be decent for a Stregth-based paladin) if it wants to move.

 

[Kzach]

Care to explain the big issue with the paladin's mark? I mean I've always seen it as incentive for enemies to not to hit others because of provoking opportunity attack, getting a -2 to the attack, and then also taking damage always seemed to me as enough incentive for smart monsters to avoid leaving to attack others.

Dude... if you want to argue the merits of the paladin, there is already a thread for that in the rules forum.

As I CLEARLY stated, this thread is for people who DO think there's something wrong and that it needs to be fixed. It is NOT about arguing whether or not it needs to be fixed.

Do I need to make that any clearer?

 

[Garthanos]

Dude... if you want to argue the merits of the paladin, there is already a thread for that in the rules forum.

As I CLEARLY stated, this thread is for people who DO think there's something wrong and that it needs to be fixed. It is NOT about arguing whether or not it needs to be fixed.

Do I need to make that any clearer?

Not everybody following every thread dude, particularly in a different branch of the forums... chill.

Whenever one is looking at house rules you need to define what about the original rule you think is a problem, you probably weren't clear enough without a reasonable reference to the thread in question, may haps providing a link as a source material would have been a less hostile response. Frequently the answer to how to fix something is contained in a clear presentation of the problem.

Specify a design goals can be a good idea too, for me I like either not changing the flavor of the existing rules so adding something different to the mix is less satisfying unless its subtle or the opposite coming up with "nice new flavor... "

What slows the adversary for instance?! for the radiant paladin is it Martial maneuvering or magic ... I am considering non Radiant Paladins and that slow idea would be great for a Paladin of an Ice god.
I like the idea of Paladins and Clerics being customized so having differing marks for different sources would certainly be right up my alley.

 

[BendBars/LiftGates]

Well, since you want the effect to be some kind of divine command forcing the adversary to duel the paladin, you could make it a little different: movement that does not bring the creature closer to the paladin or which moves the creature out of a square adjacent to the paladin costs double.

That way creatures aren't in slow-motion if they're "obeying" the power and coming at the paladin. Locking them down at range with a slow effect seems too much like a controller. And, the second part of this ability stops them from "cheating" a few squares closer by skirting around the paladin.

Personally, I think the radiant damage thing is a good solution. It doesn't necessarily mean a bolt of divine wrath dropping down from above, but it does speak the universal language of monsters: hp. And, nicely, it aligns with godly allies and adversaries through radiant vulnerability and resistance: undead cannot fight the paladin's reckoning and angels, who answer to a higher authority than a mortal agent, do not fear it.

 

[Omnifarious Grey]

Sorry if I was unclear about my post earlier, but Garthanos is correct. I was unsure about what the you were looking to specifically deal with of the paladin.

On that note, I almost like the idea of foes getting affected by something if they move away from the paladin, something flavored in the way that they are backing out of a challenge.

 

[Garthanos]

Well, since you want the effect to be some kind of divine command forcing the adversary to duel the paladin, you could make it a little different: movement that does not bring the creature closer to the paladin or which moves the creature out of a square adjacent to the paladin costs double.

That is quite elegant..it definitely has the "divine command" feel are you thinking to add this to the radiant damage effect if they engage your allies.

I rather like options/choices but that command works better for the flavor text than the bolt from the blue punishment even... though both are kind of cool.

 

[keterys]

I'd made some paladin feats long ago that might be useful for idea mining:

Warding Challenge

Prerequisites: Paladin, divine challenge power
Benefit: While a target is marked by your divine challenge power, it takes a -2 penalty to damage rolls on any attack that does not include you as a target.

Holy Challenge

Prerequisites: Paladin, divine challenge power
Benefit: When an enemy takes damage from your divine challenge power, it gains vulnerability 5 to your attacks until the end of your next turn.

Inescapable Challenge

Prerequisites: Paladin, divine challenge power
Benefit: When an enemy takes damage from your divine challenge power, you may pull the enemy 1 square as an immediate reaction.

 

[Garthanos]

I definitely like those... have they been tested?

I suppose the "mind control like" movement inhibition could also be done as a feat. Not sure I would take it though. Your holy challenge has an intensity I like.

Compelling Challenge

Prerequisites: Paladin, divine challenge power
Benefit: When your challenged enemy moves themselves in a way which does not bring them closer to the paladin or which moves them out of a square adjacent to the paladin it costs double.