D&D General Eldritch Smite vs Paladin Smite (plus a house rule already)

[Xeviat]

Huh. Yeah, I didn’t think about it, but that is kind of inconsistent. Would have been better to just have the invocation let them learn Divine Smite as a warlock spell. Like, I get they didn’t want to give everyone access to Divine Smite with a one-level warlock dip, but then just give it a level prerequisite.

It's warlock 5 I think, so dips aren't the issue for warlock. 1 level of paladin already can get you Divine smite.

 

[abirdcall]

Paladin smites are still very good even with the bonus action.

Eldritch Smite is pretty bad even without a bonus action. You are using up an invocation slot plus you don't have low level spell slots to spend on it.

Using a 3rd level slot on 4d8 damage and prone even without the action cost is often not great.

That could have been Hunger of Hadar.

 

[Xeviat]

Paladin smites are still very good even with the bonus action.

Eldritch Smite is pretty bad even without a bonus action. You are using up an invocation slot plus you don't have low level spell slots to spend on it.

Using a 3rd level slot on 4d8 damage and prone even without the action cost is often not great.

That could have been Hunger of Hadar.

It's hard to compare 2d6 damage per round plus blindness and difficult terrain with concentration to +4d8 damage on top of (2d6+4)x2 against one target.

 

[abirdcall]

It's hard to compare 2d6 damage per round plus blindness and difficult terrain with concentration to +4d8 damage on top of (2d6+4)x2 against one target.

There are 2 sets of 2d6 damage and it affects multiple creatures.

Compare that to a level 2 spell slot that grants all attacks advantage.

The Eldritch Smite could be a good option depending on circumstances but it really needs to not be a bonus action. Since it costs an invocation I don't think it is worth taking at all.

Paladin smites are really good.

 

[Xeviat]

There are 2 sets of 2d6 damage and it affects multiple creatures.

Compare that to a level 2 spell slot that grants all attacks advantage.

The Eldritch Smite could be a good option depending on circumstances but it really needs to not be a bonus action. Since it costs an invocation I don't think it is worth taking at all.

Paladin smites are really good.

I was using it to consider reverting paladin smites to not taking a bonus action and just limiting them to once per round.

 

[abirdcall]

I was using it to consider reverting paladin smites to not taking a bonus action and just limiting them to once per round.

Yeah I guess I'm just saying that despite them both being called smites they are very different.

I think paladin smites are already very strong and don't need a buff.

The bonus action makes them play differently than fighters and such and I think that is a good thing.

 

[Kannik]

Another vote from me to make it a free action to cast with a "once per turn" (or once on your turn) style limit on it. This achieves the intent of limiting/mitigating the multi-smite-alpha-strike concern (a concern I truly get, being known as the one-round boss mage killer in the PotA campaign playing with a 2014 paladin) while allowing the paladin to play nicely with all weapon use cases that might also use a bonus action, letting them retain their martial warrior archetype.

(As an aside, and while there are other considerations and effectiveness to consider, strictly looking at smites a 9th level Warlock w/ 2 short rests in a day can deal out 36d8 smite damage. Paladins using all their spell slots + their free casting only get: 27d8. With only 1 short rest, the Warlock can still deal 24d8 extra damage, and at a higher alpha strike too of 6d8 vs the paladin's 4d8.)

 

[FrogReaver]

Another vote from me to make it a free action to cast with a "once per turn" (or once on your turn) style limit on it. This achieves the intent of limiting/mitigating the multi-smite-alpha-strike concern (a concern I truly get, being known as the one-round boss mage killer in the PotA campaign playing with a 2014 paladin) while allowing the paladin to play nicely with all weapon use cases that might also use a bonus action, letting them retain their martial warrior archetype.

(As an aside, and while there are other considerations and effectiveness to consider, strictly looking at smites a 9th level Warlock w/ 2 short rests in a day can deal out 36d8 smite damage. Paladins using all their spell slots + their free casting only get: 27d8. With only 1 short rest, the Warlock can still deal 24d8 extra damage, and at a higher alpha strike too of 6d8 vs the paladin's 4d8.)

Let’s make everything free actions!!!! No?

 

[Kannik]

Let’s make everything free actions!!!! No?

As I was not advocating for everything to be a free action, I concur... let's not make everything free actions.

 

[Xeviat]

Another vote from me to make it a free action to cast with a "once per turn" (or once on your turn) style limit on it. This achieves the intent of limiting/mitigating the multi-smite-alpha-strike concern (a concern I truly get, being known as the one-round boss mage killer in the PotA campaign playing with a 2014 paladin) while allowing the paladin to play nicely with all weapon use cases that might also use a bonus action, letting them retain their martial warrior archetype.

(As an aside, and while there are other considerations and effectiveness to consider, strictly looking at smites a 9th level Warlock w/ 2 short rests in a day can deal out 36d8 smite damage. Paladins using all their spell slots + their free casting only get: 27d8. With only 1 short rest, the Warlock can still deal 24d8 extra damage, and at a higher alpha strike too of 6d8 vs the paladin's 4d8.)

Way back when, I did a spreadsheet calculation test convinced me a paladin using their spells for all smites was reasonably comparable to a battle master fighter using their dice for simple Maneuvers (the ones that add 1 die of damage after a hit).

I feel like paladin has a slight edge over Warlock before spells come into play, though I haven't gotten to feel out all of the paladin and Warlock changes. I just know all the paladins I've seen played use between 50 to 90% of their spell slots on smite, and I'd rather not see them never touch their bonus action abilities because of it.

Heck, I'd rather Smite spells be an action that let you take the attack action as part of casting, with a caviat that you don't expend the spell slot if you miss.