Planescape Fixing Planescape

[Henadic Theologian]

Okay so once again WotC made a naughty word product, so I'm making this thread to show what I would have done to fix it.

Let's start with the factions, identifying the issues first. First problem predates this edition, philosophy and civic function often feels like they are in contradiction. Also they seem completely naval gazing and unimpressive, these are supposed to be reality changing, multiplanar organizations, but get utterly esciplsed by other Sigil institutions that use a fraction of the space.

Bleaker are utter hopeless nilhists, basically one of the worst environments I can think of for helping the mentally ill and poor. Most good churches would fill its civic role better. Fix make it more about stoicism then hopeless nilism. Allow them some brighter colours.

Transcendental Order is completely naval gazers that matter to no one and can be completely ignored.

Athar are antithiests whose primary enemy, the theistic religions of the Multiverse, especially Sigil are undetailed, and they really don't do anything either. Fix they need a pro theistic enemy faction. Switch their aligned Plane to the Outlands given its the one place that has locations that makes God's into mortals while their, where they are safe from the Gods. Give them allies among none theistic religions. Give them an actual civic job to do, say running an underground railroad for Damned Souls, helping them escape lower planes, and Divine Domains were they angered their Gods, etc...

Hands of Havok are a new faction and one of the better ones, they seem to have concrete goals and ambitions, but the element that focuses on art steps on the toes of the Society of Sensation. Also need more Planar wide ambitions, but that is true of all of the factions, and more impressive Planar safe houses.

Fated are discribed as Moguls and Warlords and vary self made seize your destiny kind of folks, which means that the fact that they are Sigil's IRS makes literally no sense, huge disconnect between philosophy and function. Fix the by replacing them at the Hall of Records with the Ring Givers, tax man just fits with the Ring Bearers philosophy. Make the Fated's new HQ the Bank, which is everything the Fated claim to be.

Doomguard supports Entropy, okay so then a threat to entropy needs to be established otherwise Doomguard aren't really needed. Maybe a major goal is the destruction of the positive energy plane and the Elemental Planes to end resources of new energy and matter, a war with the Genies could work.

To be continued.

 

[Henadic Theologian]

First fix for the updated stuff is realize you can't suck and blow at the same time, and learn from past mistakes that later get reversed. In other words in uncancel the real world Gods.

Secondly more integrate town conflict. Instead of each Gatetown being an equal distance from each other, territorial struggle for dominance would be more interesting, with the battlefield both being literal, but also figurative, hearts and minds, both on the Outer Planes Plane and in the Material Plane & its Echo Planes.

Also Gatetowns should be treated more as City States with surrounding villages and forts and such other their dominion.

More ruins from past civilizations would be cool too. Maybe some wandering Demiplanes, like former, ruined, Outer Planes and aborted Outer Planes that failed to happen become true Outer Planes.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Okay so once again WotC made a naughty word product, so I'm making this thread to show what I would have done to fix it.

Let's start with the factions, identifying the issues first. First problem predates this edition, philosophy and civic function often feels like they are in contradiction. Also they seem completely naval gazing and unimpressive, these are supposed to be reality changing, multiplanar organizations, but get utterly esciplsed by other Sigil institutions that use a fraction of the space.

Bleaker are utter hopeless nilhists, basically one of the worst environments I can think of for helping the mentally ill and poor. Most good churches would fill its civic role better. Fix make it more about stoicism then hopeless nilism. Allow them some brighter colours.

Transcendental Order is completely naval gazers that matter to no one and can be completely ignored.

Athar are antithiests whose primary enemy, the theistic religions of the Multiverse, especially Sigil are undetailed, and they really don't do anything either. Fix they need a pro theistic enemy faction. Switch their aligned Plane to the Outlands given its the one place that has locations that makes God's into mortals while their, where they are safe from the Gods. Give them allies among none theistic religions. Give them an actual civic job to do, say running an underground railroad for Damned Souls, helping them escape lower planes, and Divine Domains were they angered their Gods, etc...

Hands of Havok are a new faction and one of the better ones, they seem to have concrete goals and ambitions, but the element that focuses on art steps on the toes of the Society of Sensation. Also need more Planar wide ambitions, but that is true of all of the factions, and more impressive Planar safe houses.

Fated are discribed as Moguls and Warlords and vary self made seize your destiny kind of folks, which means that the fact that they are Sigil's IRS makes literally no sense, huge disconnect between philosophy and function. Fix the by replacing them at the Hall of Records with the Ring Givers, tax man just fits with the Ring Bearers philosophy. Make the Fated's new HQ the Bank, which is everything the Fated claim to be.

Doomguard supports Entropy, okay so then a threat to entropy needs to be established otherwise Doomguard aren't really needed. Maybe a major goal is the destruction of the positive energy plane and the Elemental Planes to end resources of new energy and matter, a war with the Genies could work.

To be continued.

What do you mean by “naval gazers” and how does it apply to the factions?

What information are discussing as a problem is legacy vs new to 5e? Or is this all legacy issues that persist with 5e? Or something else?

 

[Henadic Theologian]

Reserved.

What do you mean by “naval gazers” and how does it apply to the factions?

What information are discussing as a problem is legacy vs new to 5e? Or is this all legacy issues that persist with 5e? Or something else?

A mix, most of the Faction problems are Legacy, they designed what was supposed to be this reality shaping Factions of Sigil who only really matters in Sigil and barely there until late in its time. Factions that had a weird disparity between philosophy and function, even outright contradictions at times.

A prime example of this is the Fated whose Philosophy was very individualist, self improvement and personal ambition focused, some how ending up with a very collectivist civic role that should have repulsed them on fundlemental philosophic level .)

But I reserved the second post for the parts that WotC instead of TSR screwed up primarily. Some Gatetowns, Religious erasure, the broad politics of the Outlands being bland.

Like the Outlands should be filled with resources worth fighting out, from portals to colonizable empty worlds, to portals to key strategic locations, to weird magical resources from unique planar energy mixtures, to recruiting neutral Petitioners, etc...

Like not only should Rigus be fighting off Acheron side challengers, but also fighting for key points of conquest on the Outlands, like grabbing key points with portals to or otherwisd sources of choice material resources.

They should also be scouring the plane with press gangs grabbing mortals and Petitioners for their armies.

na·vel-gaz·ing
/ˈnāvəl ɡāziNG/

noun

1. self-indulgent or excessive contemplation of oneself or a single issue, at the expense of a wider view.
   "he lapsed into his customary navel-gazing"
   

adjective

1. engaging in or characterized by self-indulgent or excessive contemplation of oneself or a single issue, at the expense of a wider view.
   "navel-gazing New Age types"

 

[Veltharis ap Rylix]

Fated are discribed as Moguls and Warlords and vary self made seize your destiny kind of folks, which means that the fact that they are Sigil's IRS makes literally no sense, huge disconnect between philosophy and function. Fix the by replacing them at the Hall of Records with the Ring Givers, tax man just fits with the Ring Bearers philosophy. Make the Fated's new HQ the Bank, which is everything the Fated claim to be.

A prime example of this is the Fated whose Philosophy was very individualist, self improvement and personal ambition focused, some how ending up with a very collectivist civic role that should have repulsed them on fundlemental philosophic level .

With the caveat that I don't have access to the new Planescape quite yet (pre-ordered, but not early access pre-ordered), the Fated aren't Sigil's IRS, they're old-school tax collectors. It's a small, but important difference.

They're not impersonal bureaucrats you routinely send a packet of paperwork and a check to annually, they're thugs that knock on your door, tell you that you owe X gp in taxes, and compel you to pay up with threats of repossessing your property (land is very much at a premium in Sigil) and/or having you arrested for tax evasion (and back in 2e, the Mercykillers had "streamlined" all criminal sentences down to either a decade of hard labor or execution, so that's hardly an idle threat).

Their control over the Hall of Records means that they control (and charge for) access to what would otherwise be public records and information. The deed that says you own the land you own? On file in the Hall of Records. The tax records showing that you've paid what you owe on time and in full? In the Hall of Records. The people who can "find" documents showing that you owe back taxes and/or don't actually own the property you're living/working in? In the Hall of Records.

The aftermath chapter of Faction War even suggests that nearly all of the tax revenue the Fated collects is eaten up by their administrative overhead and consequently siphoned off into the Faction's coffers, with little to none of it actually being used for the betterment of the city.

It's a formalized protection racket operating under the guise of tax collection. The Fated take what they think they can get away with.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Fated are discribed as Moguls and Warlords and vary self made seize your destiny kind of folks, which means that the fact that they are Sigil's IRS makes literally no sense, huge disconnect between philosophy and function. Fix the by replacing them at the Hall of Records with the Ring Givers, tax man just fits with the Ring Bearers philosophy. Make the Fated's new HQ the Bank, which is everything the Fated claim to be.

Err I think you have utterly misunderstood things here.
Ring Givers are philanthropists who give stuff away for free, why would they serve as tax collectors.

The Fated are the tax collectors cause they will take and foreclose people’s stuff without mercy. Most of the stuff they take they keep for themselves too. The Takers would not want to be bankers cause that would involve giving stuff away.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Reserved.


A mix, most of the Faction problems are Legacy, they designed what was supposed to be this reality shaping Factions of Sigil who only really matters in Sigil and barely there until late in its time. Factions that had a weird disparity between philosophy and function, even outright contradictions at times.

A prime example of this is the Fated whose Philosophy was very individualist, self improvement and personal ambition focused, some how ending up with a very collectivist civic role that should have repulsed them on fundlemental philosophic level .)

But I reserved the second post for the parts that WotC instead of TSR screwed up primarily. Some Gatetowns, Religious erasure, the broad politics of the Outlands being bland.

Like the Outlands should be filled with resources worth fighting out, from portals to colonizable empty worlds, to portals to key strategic locations, to weird magical resources from unique planar energy mixtures, to recruiting neutral Petitioners, etc...

Like not only should Rigus be fighting off Acheron side challengers, but also fighting for key points of conquest on the Outlands, like grabbing key points with portals to or otherwisd sources of choice material resources.

They should also be scouring the plane with press gangs grabbing mortals and Petitioners for their armies.

Most of this seems to be problems with legacy Planescape.

 

[Incenjucar]

Hypocrisy is both the default for reality and a powerful driver of stories. Sigil isn't a "good" place.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Yeah, I always thought Sigil was analogous to Victorian London.

In that case a gang of shifty heavies as the tax collectors and uncaring monsters caring for the mentally ill fit.

 

[Demetrios1453]

From what I've seen, nothing needs to fixed