Fixing Sacred Circle

[Stalker0]

All of the above? I'm certainly enjoying the discussion, even if it has evolved a little bit beyond what I originally had in mind. I've certainly learned a bit, and there have been a number of interesting ways proposed of solving the issue.


Anyway, I really like Nifft's idea of boosting the penalty to marked enemies. I have plenty of time to sleep on it and think about how it'll play out, since it's still 3 weeks to my next game <sigh>

The other reason I like this idea is because it stacks with shield of faith. So if the two decide to use it together, you get +2 from SOF, and then +2 extra from the paladin's mark.

 

[dangerous jack]

The other reason I like this idea is because it stacks with shield of faith. So if the two decide to use it together, you get +2 from SOF, and then +2 extra from the paladin's mark.

Agreed. So the glowing circle of runes on the ground is someplace you want to be, even if the cleric's shield of faith is active.

 

[Pennarin]

I admire the smarts you guys have displayed analyzing the pros and cons of the two powers. Especially liked the bit about the circle being a zone thus people being able to enter it after the facts and benefit from it.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Overall I have to say that my feeling is the real nut of the problem is Paladin's just don't have any really good 2nd level utility powers. Sacred Circle is not a bad power, but it is true that the Clerics Shield of Faith is quite a bit better in 99% of the cases. This wouldn't be any problem, assuming the Paladin had something else as an option, but the other 2 utility powers are realistically not that great.

Martyr's Blessing is pretty much useless. Granted one can come up with a scenario where you might want to use it, but I certainly wouldn't want to have it taking up my utility slot. The chances of a situation coming up where it does much for the party just doesn't seem that high.

Astral Speech is fine, but way too situational and thus again I wouldn't want to spend a whole utility slot on it.

I think Sacred Circle itself is still OK, and I don't buy the "its no good because the Cleric has something better" argument.

The problem thus is just that the Paladin is saddled with a rotten set of choices for utility power, at least until 6th level, which is kind of a ways to have to wait. My answer would be to invent a better choice! Chances are there will be a 'Divine Power' supplement which will address this at some point, but in the meantime it shouldn't be that hard to invent one more 2nd level utility power for the Paladin to choose from. That way they can take Sacred Circle, or whatever the new thing is and the choice may depend on the party composition, etc.

 

[CapnZapp]

@OP:

the real nut of the problem is Paladin's just don't have any really good 2nd level utility powers

Let me just add that if you change it because of this, you have a solid reason.

My resistance comes from the fact you want to change it for a reason that's false logic.

1) Some Paladins don't travel with Clerics
2) Some Paladins travel with Clerics who doesn't have Shield of Faith
3a) Some Paladins travel with Clerics who saves Shield of Faith for a later encounter
3b) Some Paladins travel with Clerics who spent Shield of Faith in an earlier encounter
4) Some Paladins even travel with Clerics who use Shield of Faith in ways that still allow the Paladin to use their power too, without overlap.

All these Paladins can be the hero with their Sacred Circle as written.
For all these Paladins, increasing the power of Sacred Circle makes it over-powered, relatively speaking.

So, if you look at Sacred Circle itself, and arrives at the conclusion

I think Sacred Circle itself is still OK

...then you should not change it.

Don't worry, this is my last attempt at making you see my point. Cheers!

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

@OP:

Let me just add that if you change it because of this, you have a solid reason.

My resistance comes from the fact you want to change it for a reason that's false logic.

1) Some Paladins don't travel with Clerics
2) Some Paladins travel with Clerics who doesn't have Shield of Faith
3a) Some Paladins travel with Clerics who saves Shield of Faith for a later encounter
3b) Some Paladins travel with Clerics who spent Shield of Faith in an earlier encounter
4) Some Paladins even travel with Clerics who use Shield of Faith in ways that still allow the Paladin to use their power too, without overlap.

All these Paladins can be the hero with their Sacred Circle as written.
For all these Paladins, increasing the power of Sacred Circle makes it over-powered, relatively speaking.

So, if you look at Sacred Circle itself, and arrives at the conclusion

...then you should not change it.

Don't worry, this is my last attempt at making you see my point. Cheers!

No, no, I agree with you, there's no reason to change it . I was just commenting on the whole thing and seemed like the root of the issue wasn't IMHO that Sacred Circle was bad, but I can see where in some parties people might feel like Paladins were a bit shortchanged on 2nd level utility powers. Like I say, my answer would be just to make up an additional power for them to choose.

 

[raekwon2112]

IMO, |Paladin right now really is a hybrid. They tank, deal damage and heal/protect others. Doing anything as well as someone who just focuses on it would be bad with the other abilities added in. The Clerics power is better because he focuses on helaing and protecting others, While the pally as it as an side power along with tanking and being able to deal a lot of damage.

Just MHO

 

[CapnZapp]

@AA: And I agree with you. That's why I began my post with "To the original poster", albeit abbreviated.

 

[DanmarLOK]

So we need to come up with some alternate choices for Utility Level 2 for the Paladin then? Something defendery and yet attractive to the player to actually take.

 

[dangerous jack]

The Clerics power is better because he focuses on helaing and protecting others, While the pally as it as an side power along with tanking and being able to deal a lot of damage.

This is the core of the disagreement. I see it as a Level 2 Utility power vs. a Level 2 Utility power, both taken by the class to which the power belongs. To me, a side power is something you'd get as part of a package (e.g. when you first choose your class or race and get a bunch of powers together, some of which are just little quirks or bonuses).

It's a disagreement about our core assumptions, so I think this is one case where we need to agree to disagree.