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Message: <blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 6802088" data-attributes="member: 6790260">Er...Proficiency has nothing whatsoever to do with whether you crit. Nothing at all. And, unless I'm mistaken, Proficiency is never added to damage rolls. So I don't see why the Champion would be "rolling in the damage" in comparison to any other Fighter archetype. Critting 10% of the time instead of 5% equates to 5% bonus damage on average, but in a very "spiky" way. Maneuvers have limited numbers of uses, but work much more consistently (particularly for the best maneuver, which makes you hit more frequently, thus producing very consistent damage).I understand the impulse, but I see it as misdirected. The Champion is definitely meant to have a "I don't want to think about anything mechanical" nature. But it really should've picked up some of the slack in the non-combat areas as a result. Remarkable Athlete is slightly better than getting an Artisan Tool prof, but not much...particularly when Champs would already be pretty damn good at most of those ability checks anyway. It's certainly not very "remarkable" particularly when *all* Bards get something strictly better (if you ignore the, IMO almost-meaningless, extra jump distance).I wouldn't call the Champion a strong class. It's not a "trap option," which is a meaningful thing, but borders on damning with faint praise. It's better than the Beastmaster Ranger...which is again damning with faint praise.Eugh, no, don't tank the Battlemaster to bring it into line with the Champ. Particularly not by giving it ONE die per short rest to start with. You do realize that that would mean Warlocks would have more spells than Battlemasters have maneuvers until level 6, right? And that, with the assumed encounters-and-rests per day, that would mean getting to do anything other than basic attacks only ~3 times per day (probably fewer, since all the evidence I've seen points to groups being fairly short rest averse), over the course of 6-8 fights. Wow, super exciting, getting to do ONE thing every other fight, at best!Much, much better to do a mixture of reducing the size of the die (to d6, because d4s would just be pitiful) and the number (probably to 3? That still feels scanty but perhaps it should). Expected value of 3d6 is 10.5. With three rounds per combat, six combats per day (aka, a low estimate), both Fighters should be making 18 attacks minimum, 36 at level 5. So the Battlemaster pulls slightly ahead for two levels--5e doesn't care about that sort of imbalance, just look at the Moon Druid. At level 5, you're looking at anywhere between 36 attacks (a day that favors the Battlemaster) and 8*5*2 = 80 attacks (a day that favors the Champion). Champion should expect approximately 3.5-8 crits per day; Battlemaster should expect half that, so 1.75-4. For a big weapon (since we're optimizing damage), that's either 2d6 or 1d12 times those values, so 7*(1.75) to 7*(4) = 12.25 to 28 bonus damage for the Champ, vs. a typical top-end of 3*3*3.5 = 31.5 extra damage for the Battlemaster's maneuver dice and a typical low-end of 1*3*3.5 = 10.5 extra damage.So, if the BM gets more than 1 rest per 2 encounters, it'll pull ahead slightly, given the above changes. If it gets less than 1 rest per 2 encounters, it'll fall behind. Completely within 5e's acceptable "balance" range. Not that I think 5e actually cares that much about balance of this kind (again, looking at the Moon Druid).If you're still really worried about the Battlemaster pulling ahead of the Champion, just have it deal +1 extra damage per crit. Originally I was going to suggest adding half proficiency, but that got wonky at max level (four attacks per round plus tripled crit range leads to LOTS of crits). That one extra damage piles up after a while (a max-level Champion can expect around 18 crits per day), and at the low levels it's enough to boost the Champ to be on par with, or even exceed, the Battlemaster. Who also has to worry about whether or not he gets two rests per day--and most of the evidence I've seen suggests the majority of them will be under-rested.</blockquote>

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