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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Unwise" data-source="post: 6802106" data-attributes="member: 98008">I'm rather surprised to see so many people like the Champion as is, soon after 5e came out, it was demonized as useless, the pendulum has swung back it seems. I have always loved the simplicity, but felt they give up too much effectiveness for that. I think if anything the simple options should be equal to the most powerful. Give noobs a powerful and simple character to get a handle on (not that only noobs will play one). Peronally I feel that overall the Champion is OK compared to other classes, because the Fighter is great, not because the subclass isn't lacking.I always felt that all they brought to the table was the increased crit range. I had thought that even just doing damage with the 4 x d8 expertise dice per short rest, the Battlemaster ends up doing more damage and when they want it. This of course ignores the excellent effects attached to those maneuvers. If you are a Champion tank, you would have to roll a 19 4 times in a short rest to equal that bonus damage.Our group plays  that crits are max normal damage + rolled extra weapon dice, and still nobody has been tempted by a Champion.My gripes about that Champion are that A) If you are giving up flexibility and maneuvers, your damage should exceed that for a Battlemaster using his maneuvers unintelligently on average over the day. B) There are no defensive subclass options to play a simple tank, rather than damage dealer C) Remarkable athlete does not even work as a "ribbon ability", it does not make the Champ remarkable in the least.Off the top of my head I'd like to see something likeA) Add in a choice between expending the crit range by another X or adding +1 AC (Adding 1AC to a class that can wear platemail and get defensive style is actually really significant, the value goes up exponentially. This could make them pretty fearsome tanks. Might be OP but is simple at least)B) Allow Remarkable Athlete to work with even skills you are proficient in. A slightly nerfed expertise that applies to many things. In my games, I would consider "once per long rest, take 20 on any athletics roll after seeing the dice, dictate how you did it" though that sort of thing is not for every table.Regarding the expanded crit range, just run some numbers, averaging ten rounds of combat between short rests, you need to get to some pretty high chances of crits to exceed what a BM can do as a side effect of their maneuvers. 10 rounds, 20 attacks, crit range of 15-20 = 5d8 to 5d12 extra damage given at random compared to the BMs 4d8 when they want them. A subclasses main schtick should far exceed a component of another subclass's schtick. Crit range abilities are so dependent on the number of attacks, that they might bite at level 3 but be amazing with 4 attacks. Complicating it again is advantage, it makes it damn hard to balance as the core schtick of a class.  If I cared a lot about balance and wanted to keep things simple, it would be possible to just say that the Champ adds X to its damage all the time.</blockquote>

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