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<blockquote data-quote="TwoSix" data-source="post: 6803496" data-attributes="member: 205">Here's a slightly different take.&nbsp; The people who are primarily concerned about Champion damage are players who will make decisions about what kind of character to play based on mechanical effectiveness, which is optimizers (a group I count myself in, proudly.)&nbsp; That group is going to have very little crossover with the group who is looking for a simple mechanical option.&nbsp; Making the champion the best damage dealer would force optimizers to make the painful decision between a boring but stronger option or a complex but weaker option.&nbsp; What group possibly gains by forcing such a decision?I understand that there are a lot of variables, but the delta between a Champion and a BM can't be THAT high.&nbsp; The crit feature adds +0.35 damage per attack on average, assuming greatsword/maul.&nbsp; (2d6 extra, once per twenty attacks.)&nbsp; Maybe a bit more if you leverage some kind of sneak attack or smiting build.&nbsp; That's tacked onto their 10 or so average damage per hit.&nbsp; (Assuming 2d6+3 for a low-level melee champion).&nbsp; The BM gets 3 or 4 superiority dice per SR that adds +1d8 to damage, although I think the most damaging option would be to turn misses into hits for Great Weapon Master/Sharpshooter aided attacks, right?&nbsp; Plus some of those hits might be at advantage due to various BM maneuvers.&nbsp; So maybe 25 extra damage or so per short rest?&nbsp; I would assume at least 10-12 attack rolls per short rest for a fighter, so about +2 damage per attack.&nbsp; So we're looking at about 12 damage per attack for a BM versus 10.35 for a Champion.&nbsp; BM is better, but Champion is hardly lollygagging.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="TwoSix, post: 6803496, member: 205"] Here's a slightly different take. The people who are primarily concerned about Champion damage are players who will make decisions about what kind of character to play based on mechanical effectiveness, which is optimizers (a group I count myself in, proudly.) That group is going to have very little crossover with the group who is looking for a simple mechanical option. Making the champion the best damage dealer would force optimizers to make the painful decision between a boring but stronger option or a complex but weaker option. What group possibly gains by forcing such a decision? I understand that there are a lot of variables, but the delta between a Champion and a BM can't be THAT high. The crit feature adds +0.35 damage per attack on average, assuming greatsword/maul. (2d6 extra, once per twenty attacks.) Maybe a bit more if you leverage some kind of sneak attack or smiting build. That's tacked onto their 10 or so average damage per hit. (Assuming 2d6+3 for a low-level melee champion). The BM gets 3 or 4 superiority dice per SR that adds +1d8 to damage, although I think the most damaging option would be to turn misses into hits for Great Weapon Master/Sharpshooter aided attacks, right? Plus some of those hits might be at advantage due to various BM maneuvers. So maybe 25 extra damage or so per short rest? I would assume at least 10-12 attack rolls per short rest for a fighter, so about +2 damage per attack. So we're looking at about 12 damage per attack for a BM versus 10.35 for a Champion. BM is better, but Champion is hardly lollygagging. [/QUOTE]

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