Fixing the Monk Class

[Fishbone]

Isn't it like a Ranger analog? Just give it full BAB and call it a wrap.

For the core classes...

Martial Characters/Full BAB and lower skills usually
Fighters, Paladins, Barbarians, Monks, Rangers

Skill Classes, High Skills and other perks, 3/4 BAB
Rogue, Bard

Divine Casters, 3/4 BAB
Druid, Cleric

Arcane Casters, 1/2 BAB
Sorcerer, Wizard

What? Is giving the guy another +5 and another attack over his career a game warper? No, but it certainly makes it easier to play a monk from hitting with attacks, to making Stunning Fist work, to meeting BAB prerequisites, the works.

I like Pathfinder, but the Full BAB Flurry with 3/4 normally COP OUT really frustrates me. I've hated the 3/4 BAB on the monk for over a decade and Pathfinder kept it.

 

[Stormonu]

Sorry it took so long, that's a lot of text! Here are my thoughts reading through so far:

I kinda stopped there. I just don't understand why you need to take things away from the monk. If it was really necessary for awesome, I suppose, but it looks like those are mostly one/day or one/day/5 monk levels low level spell effects... It look like you broke things up too much and didn't give the monk enough talents to make up for it. It's nice to have more options on what do do with your monk, but you also have to fix its core problems first. Thanks for your input, but I don't agree with your houserules.

Well, I wasn't attempting to power down the monk (back to the drawing board in that case), the idea was open up what the monk got at various levels rather than having a fixed path. I tried to match gaining an ability on par with what a spellcaster would be able to cast at a given level. Rather than all monks looking the same, the idea was they could choose one of several paths so each would be a bit unique.

Also, though it's been a while since I wrote it, I think you may have misunderstood (or I badly wrote) Dragon punch. You can use it with Flurry or multiple attacks; it's just an attack so it does your normal damage plus bonus elemental-type damage.

 

[Fishbone]

With alternative class features and Ultimate Combat, just give it full BAB and call it a day. I really think that would make it work and I would like to try that change a few times.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Full BAB isn't enough. Fighting unarmed and unarmored at its core is an extremely poor fighting style mechanically, and the monk's class doesn't even do enough to make up for that, nevermind that class features are supposed to give you benefits beyond being "functional." There's also the MAD issue, which is really inexcuseable when Paizo did such a fine job fixing it for the Paladin.

Ultimate Combat helps, but frankly...not much. Master of Many Styles is simply not worth taking to 20 as a Monk, the loss of flurry is too much. It is, however, and amazing 1-2 level dip for more competent martial characters to buff with. Unarmed Fighter with a touch of monk is just better at brawling. I have a "kung fu dino druid" build idea that similarly takes those stances and puts them on something that can actually fight well. In Dandu's Duelist thread in the legacy forum, I posted a Duelist that fights unarmed but has very little monk in him similarly making use of the combat styles.

 

[Wiseblood]

A strange thought occured to me. If a monk chose not to use/focus on unarmed strike could he be as good or perhaps better than a monk that did focus on these things? I mean not even using monk weapons, which suck anyway.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Possibly. He'd be able to afford weapon enhancements and deal with different types of damage reduction much better, for sure. He'd still be a total gimp and you'd start asking yourself why you're not just playing a Fighter or something.

And not all monk weapons are garbage, just 99%. The Temple Sword (APG), while not worth an Exotic proficiency feat, is basically a longsword you can trip with, which is pretty nice. UC added a bunch of new monk weapons (by RAW Monks did not gain proficiency with them for free -- but Unarmed Fighters did -- thanks, Paizo!). Kusari-gama is a reach double weapon, which may or may not be enough to make TWF viable. The 9-section chain is an all around solid weapon. Some others were decent, too.

 

[Celtavian]

re

The only issue with the monk is the MAD issue. That's it. So creating a monk that is highly wisdom focused would go a long way to making the monk more playable in campaigns that only allow 15 or 20 point point buy for stats.

The whole reason I've always thought it odd that people consider monks weak is our group rolls their stats in a favorable way. So when a player plays a monk, they generally have good stats on all four major stats they need. And MAD works both ways for a monk. It negatively affects them, but they also get extraordinary positive effect from multiple good stats.

Monks are extremely tough when you don't have to spend 15 points on stats. The current point buy system heavily favors the simple classes like wizard, cleric, fighter, and barbarian. Classes that can get by with a very few decent stats needed to be effective.

That's why I hate point buy. It further pushes you into classes you may not want to play, but don't have much of a choice if you want to be highly effective.

 

[Nikosandros]

Please don't complain if it somehow seems to outshine other non-casters now. I plan to also buff them (though none as much as the monk, which is the worst class in PF), so none of them will end up looking quite the same, either.

Have you anything to share about the other non-casters? I like a lot of your ideas for the monk.

 

[Wiseblood]

Possibly. He'd be able to afford weapon enhancements and deal with different types of damage reduction much better, for sure. He'd still be a total gimp and you'd start asking yourself why you're not just playing a Fighter or something.

And not all monk weapons are garbage, just 99%. The Temple Sword (APG), while not worth an Exotic proficiency feat, is basically a longsword you can trip with, which is pretty nice. UC added a bunch of new monk weapons (by RAW Monks did not gain proficiency with them for free -- but Unarmed Fighters did -- thanks, Paizo!). Kusari-gama is a reach double weapon, which may or may not be enough to make TWF viable. The 9-section chain is an all around solid weapon. Some others were decent, too.

I had forgotten the temple sword.

I was looking at it last night after my thought. It would make for an interesting unarmored duelist type. (all good saves, stupid mobility unarmored bonuses)Select feats that were less focused and instead applicable to both the weapon of choice and unarmed attacks. I think that would be neat. Granted you could easily lag behind other classes but I think a skilled player could pull it off nicely.

 

[Celtavian]

Possibly. He'd be able to afford weapon enhancements and deal with different types of damage reduction much better, for sure. He'd still be a total gimp and you'd start asking yourself why you're not just playing a Fighter or something.

And not all monk weapons are garbage, just 99%. The Temple Sword (APG), while not worth an Exotic proficiency feat, is basically a longsword you can trip with, which is pretty nice. UC added a bunch of new monk weapons (by RAW Monks did not gain proficiency with them for free -- but Unarmed Fighters did -- thanks, Paizo!). Kusari-gama is a reach double weapon, which may or may not be enough to make TWF viable. The 9-section chain is an all around solid weapon. Some others were decent, too.

As far as I understood it, monks get proficiency with all weapons listed as monk weapons. At least that is how I run it.

You have wayyyy too many house rules. You must have a specific group you play with as I doubt most common players enjoy that many house rules.