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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kae'Yoss" data-source="post: 1026908" data-attributes="member: 4134">Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fixing the newly broken rogue class (thanks to Andy and 3.5)OK, then. I agree with that. Plus I think it the DM should actually cross the rogue sometimes by robbing him of sneak attack. But it should not be to often. The same goes for all the other strenghts of all the classes. On the other hand, everyone should get the chance to really shine from time to time. It's nice to throw a horde of mooks at the party so they can really smash them without problem. If it is done only occasionally, it's OK.That's one of the changes I really don't like. Sure, the exclusive skill part had it's problems, but I think it was there for a reason. I like what they did to animal empathy: No more exclusive skill mechanic, but still it's something only the right people get. The other exclusive skills are handled OK, too. Except Use Magic Device. A possible solution would have been something like the trapfinding ability: You can take UMD, but only rogues and bards get the full mileage out of it.Hm... depending on the type of character you play, there might be nothing on the fighter list which interests you anyway. And then there's these hordes of rog/ftr characters out there. Even with a single level of rogue you can max it out (albeit at double cost).Don't forget that it's two plus INT (and maybe +1 in the case of humans.)Stupid rogues are evaders of traps. Smart rogues find and disarm these traps (and that's still their domain)Plus the rogue has a better reflex save bonus and higher dexterity (at least usually, since barbarians concentrate on str and con) so he still beats the barbarian to it.They still get 2 points more than bards or rangers, and still they have a big class skill list (although the bard is bigger than the rogues, but that's only because of the many knowledge skills and the spellcaster skills).You do know that even in 3.0 the barbarian got uncanny dodge earlier than the rouge. The fact that in 3.5 the rogue gets these things a little later doesn't change that. Plus, after level 8 it doesn't matter anymore.The rogue still holds dominion over these grounds. The fact that the others caught up a bit doesn't change that. And even in 3.0 others came close to the rogue in many of these things. The rogues uniqueness came from: Sneak Attack, Trapfinding, Special Abilities, and the combination of a number of features which no other class unified: Very many class skills, a high number of skill points, uncanny dodge (in all instances), and evasion.Is he still the only one who can really take advantage of a distracted or unvary foe? Yes.Is he still the only one who can effectively find and disarm traps without tossing tanks or enemies down every corridor? Oh yea.Is he still the one with the most skill points, and with the greatest class skill list (if you don't count knowledge skills as different skills)= Yes.Is he still the only one with these nice abilities he can choose from (barring PrC's), like improved evasion, roll with the blow, skill mastery, slippery mind, crippling strike? Yes.Is he still the only one who gets evasion AND uncanny dodge (which is ud iud and ts now). Sure.You see, the rogue doesn't have to depend solely on his sneak attack to be unique. Far from it.Sure, but at a higher cost. They had to "waste" a feat for it and get ranks in a skill that was cross-class for them.Once again: if the ability to make sneak attack would imply that you know how to defend against these, too, it would not be an extra ability! It would rather be included in sneak attack, like: "This gives you 1d6 extra damage per two levels. Plus, if you are sneak attacked, the same amount of extra dice are subtracted from the enemies dice pool". But it isn't, meaning that the ability to make sneak attacks and the ability to defeat them are two different abilities.Plus, uncanny dodge isn't the reverse appliance of sneak attack, that's only an indirect effect. It rather makes you keep your dex bonus when caught flat-footed and keeps you from getting flanked. Both things allow a rogue to make sneak attacks, sure, but uncanny dodge also protects you against people without sneak attack who just want to get a better chance to hit you. Also, even with uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge, you can still be sneak attacked. You just have to be immobilized somehow or he has to succeed in a feint. Or he has to get blink.I'm not searching for anything. You put things wrong and ignore those who put them right. You repeat your claims over and over. This are the signs adventurers look for to break out the alchemist's napalm.Except, they aren't broken. Neither are they nerfed.</blockquote>

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