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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Fixing the newly broken rogue class (thanks to Andy and 3.5)
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<blockquote data-quote="Technik4" data-source="post: 1027033" data-attributes="member: 7211"><p><strong>Last Reply from Me</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Didn't you say something about stereotypes? What about the rogues that go all cha and int-based skills? Are they still the scouts? I think youre trying to pigeon-hole a flexible class. Why should a rogue get camoflauge or Hide in Plain Sight if he doesnt even have any ranks in Hide (not a prerequisite for being a rogue)?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>They possess a host of weak abilities. So if I was DMing I would feel bad for the character and the character would probably get bored. Once the group got past the "wow - you can do <em>that</em> too?" factor, it would get retired quickly. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Remember earlier when I was talking about multiclassing? Its extermely easy to take rogue levels to fulfill a concept, after all the class is so broad that you can be anything from a physician to a burglar to an ambassador to a locksmith, etc etc. Barbarian is less broad, you are sort of stuck being more primitive and the rage ability isnt nearly as vague as the sneak attack. Then you get to Monk, well this is pretty specific at this point. You probably trained at a monastary, many of your abilities are picked for you (or in 3.5 you have an option with 2 choices). So it is not just a simple thing to pick up 2 monk levels over 2 rogue levels, not even going into monk multiclass restrictions.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You've got to be kidding. Barbarians can't find traps. Barbarians can't defuse traps. Hell, barbarians don't even detect traps (as a cleric spell does). Barbarians won't be pointing out a trap down the hall, or anything like that. All a barbarian can do that he couldn't before is react to a trap better. This is a function of the Uncanny Dodge Mechanic. Maybe it would be easier to take this away from the barb in your campaign instead of inflating the rogue?</p><p></p><p>And as Ive said at least twice, a barbarian won't even react as well as a rogue as they have a Poor reflex save. The trap sense ability is just giving them a fighting chance at dodging a high level trap, its not putting them on par with the rogue who will have a good reflex save and probably evasion to completely avoid the effects. Sheesh.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is still baloney. I know that punching someone in the kidney would hurt them a lot, I have no clue how to go about defending myself so that someone couldn't do the same to me. I can give you more applicable examples for every "burglar alarm" story you can cook up. Oh, but you shouldn't even have to explain this, its so logical and all.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Except that both the bard and the ranger have at least 1 skill they have to put points in just to power a class ability. In fact, the ranger has 2 - Survival for tracking and Handle Animal for Wild Empahty. So much for all those skill points. A bard has to put at least 1 in perform every level to use abilities, and as many debates have raged on, they probably will want 2 or even 3 perform skills maxed (even though this is a poor way to spend points). So no, the rogue hasn't been replaced as the ultimate-skill whore, not even speaking of his list which is fatter than the rangers by far, and a little chubbier than the bard's.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>They aren't on par, they are better. It has been done.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>See above. This is hogwash.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So it was unbalanced that conceivably anyone could track without taking *1* level of ranger by paying twice as much for it (except the "other" wilderness characters, Druid and Barbarian)? Ridiculous. Its totally balanced, we aren't talking about the pinnacle of ranger-dom here, we're talking about tracking someone. If you took the track feat and bought those ranks you DESERVE to track as well as a ranger.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Really? Is sneak attack a feat? What about Trap-finding? Trap-sense? Uncanny Dodge? Evasion? None of those are feats eh? Well then how can someone (anyone?) encroach on the rogue? Where is the bad call? Oh, is it because *1* class got an ability that won't even be used to the extent the rogues will?</p><p></p><p>To sum up, as others have said, the rogue is fine, the barbarian is fine. Its totally cool that the barbarian gets a couple UDodge abilities a little earlier because it makes multiclassing into a rogue even more difficult (in terms of how many levels you take - 1 for skills and sneak, 2 for Evasion, 3 for more sneak attack in addition to the other benefits, 4 for UDodge, 5 for more sneak, etc. Before you know it, we'll all be rogues).</p><p></p><p>The rogue is the master of skills, sneak attack, and trap-finding, disarming, setting, and evasion. Leave it alone.</p><p></p><p>Technik out</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Technik4, post: 1027033, member: 7211"] [b]Last Reply from Me[/b] Didn't you say something about stereotypes? What about the rogues that go all cha and int-based skills? Are they still the scouts? I think youre trying to pigeon-hole a flexible class. Why should a rogue get camoflauge or Hide in Plain Sight if he doesnt even have any ranks in Hide (not a prerequisite for being a rogue)? They possess a host of weak abilities. So if I was DMing I would feel bad for the character and the character would probably get bored. Once the group got past the "wow - you can do [i]that[/i] too?" factor, it would get retired quickly. Remember earlier when I was talking about multiclassing? Its extermely easy to take rogue levels to fulfill a concept, after all the class is so broad that you can be anything from a physician to a burglar to an ambassador to a locksmith, etc etc. Barbarian is less broad, you are sort of stuck being more primitive and the rage ability isnt nearly as vague as the sneak attack. Then you get to Monk, well this is pretty specific at this point. You probably trained at a monastary, many of your abilities are picked for you (or in 3.5 you have an option with 2 choices). So it is not just a simple thing to pick up 2 monk levels over 2 rogue levels, not even going into monk multiclass restrictions. You've got to be kidding. Barbarians can't find traps. Barbarians can't defuse traps. Hell, barbarians don't even detect traps (as a cleric spell does). Barbarians won't be pointing out a trap down the hall, or anything like that. All a barbarian can do that he couldn't before is react to a trap better. This is a function of the Uncanny Dodge Mechanic. Maybe it would be easier to take this away from the barb in your campaign instead of inflating the rogue? And as Ive said at least twice, a barbarian won't even react as well as a rogue as they have a Poor reflex save. The trap sense ability is just giving them a fighting chance at dodging a high level trap, its not putting them on par with the rogue who will have a good reflex save and probably evasion to completely avoid the effects. Sheesh. This is still baloney. I know that punching someone in the kidney would hurt them a lot, I have no clue how to go about defending myself so that someone couldn't do the same to me. I can give you more applicable examples for every "burglar alarm" story you can cook up. Oh, but you shouldn't even have to explain this, its so logical and all. Except that both the bard and the ranger have at least 1 skill they have to put points in just to power a class ability. In fact, the ranger has 2 - Survival for tracking and Handle Animal for Wild Empahty. So much for all those skill points. A bard has to put at least 1 in perform every level to use abilities, and as many debates have raged on, they probably will want 2 or even 3 perform skills maxed (even though this is a poor way to spend points). So no, the rogue hasn't been replaced as the ultimate-skill whore, not even speaking of his list which is fatter than the rangers by far, and a little chubbier than the bard's. They aren't on par, they are better. It has been done. See above. This is hogwash. So it was unbalanced that conceivably anyone could track without taking *1* level of ranger by paying twice as much for it (except the "other" wilderness characters, Druid and Barbarian)? Ridiculous. Its totally balanced, we aren't talking about the pinnacle of ranger-dom here, we're talking about tracking someone. If you took the track feat and bought those ranks you DESERVE to track as well as a ranger. Really? Is sneak attack a feat? What about Trap-finding? Trap-sense? Uncanny Dodge? Evasion? None of those are feats eh? Well then how can someone (anyone?) encroach on the rogue? Where is the bad call? Oh, is it because *1* class got an ability that won't even be used to the extent the rogues will? To sum up, as others have said, the rogue is fine, the barbarian is fine. Its totally cool that the barbarian gets a couple UDodge abilities a little earlier because it makes multiclassing into a rogue even more difficult (in terms of how many levels you take - 1 for skills and sneak, 2 for Evasion, 3 for more sneak attack in addition to the other benefits, 4 for UDodge, 5 for more sneak, etc. Before you know it, we'll all be rogues). The rogue is the master of skills, sneak attack, and trap-finding, disarming, setting, and evasion. Leave it alone. Technik out [/QUOTE]
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Fixing the newly broken rogue class (thanks to Andy and 3.5)
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