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Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Fixing the newly broken rogue class (thanks to Andy and 3.5)
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<blockquote data-quote="Sonofapreacherman" data-source="post: 1027617" data-attributes="member: 2315"><p>Reflex counts for nothing when you're dealing with traps that target your AC. The difference of a couple Dexterity points matters very little, especially when the barbarian has twice as many hit points over the rogue (on the rare occasion that the trap actually hits).</p><p></p><p>Which is another way of sarcastically saying... <em>big flipping deal</em>.</p><p></p><p>I'm well aware of that fact. Hence my reason for changing it then too. In fact, the only two characters that I never modified in 3.0 were the cleric and wizard.</p><p></p><p>So what? That's just a mechanic. The order makes no sense on a conceptual level. I rogue should earn those at the same time (at the very least).</p><p></p><p>The issue was never "how much other characters had to waste in order to keep up with the ranger". It was the fact that other characters could be the ranger's equal at something that the ranger should be unequaled at doing. Now the barbarian is the rogues equal at sensing traps and more skilled at avoiding flatfootedness sooner in levels. Both are abilities where the rogue *should not* be contested.</p><p></p><p>But it wasn't. It was folded in uncanny dodge instead.</p><p></p><p>Indirect? Who are you kidding? It was by design. That's the whole point.</p><p></p><p>That's funny. When was last time you saw a fighter sacrifice their multiple attacks per round to perform one <em>feint in combat</em> and hit a rogue? Now another rogue with sneak attack...</p><p></p><p>I can't help if you choose to be oblivious to my counterpoints. And I only repeat those points when people start arguing with issues that have long since been addressed (having only skim read the thread). I won't take the blame for them either.</p><p></p><p>-----</p><p></p><p>Here we go again...</p><p></p><p>You mean like rogues who can detect magical traps even though they haven't taken any ranks in Search? I'm not trying to pigeon hole anybody. Their rules have already done that. You *choose* a rogue already *knowing* that they are trapfinders.</p><p></p><p>The fact that you would even allow a character to multiclass in such a fashion (5 first level classes in five levels), speak volumes.</p><p></p><p>Does anybody role play anymore???</p><p></p><p>Not the way you make it sound. See above. It's either difficult to multiclass or isn't. Choose one. You can't sit on both sides of the fence.</p><p></p><p>I know. And both you and KaeYoss ignored the traps that target AC. Dexterity scores do not divided the rogue and barbarian apart so much at that point.</p><p></p><p>The same goes for Tracking, and yet somehow the ranger was encroached upon because of that one point. I have never said that *all* of the rogues abilities are being encroached, so don't exaggerate for meaningless effect. I have said that *quintessential rogue abilities* have been encroached upon by other characters. I have then listed those abilities.</p><p></p><p>Sophistry; although really not <em>that</em> clever. If you are foolish enough to cherry pick classes during your early fast levels, and lenient enough to allow it as a DM, then enjoy the chaos you sow in your own games. To each their own.</p><p></p><p>You made a few more points about that I already addressed with KaeYoss. Read my replies to him for your answers.</p><p></p><p>------</p><p></p><p>sinmissing.</p><p></p><p>Thanks for dropping in, but in all honestly, I enjoy skills just a much as you do. I consider them one of the best designed additions of the game. I have simply found that even the most well-meaning DM rarely uses more than a handful of skill checks. When I DM, I use them all the time, but that hasn't been the standard in my experiences.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Sonofapreacherman, post: 1027617, member: 2315"] Reflex counts for nothing when you're dealing with traps that target your AC. The difference of a couple Dexterity points matters very little, especially when the barbarian has twice as many hit points over the rogue (on the rare occasion that the trap actually hits). Which is another way of sarcastically saying... [i]big flipping deal[/i]. I'm well aware of that fact. Hence my reason for changing it then too. In fact, the only two characters that I never modified in 3.0 were the cleric and wizard. So what? That's just a mechanic. The order makes no sense on a conceptual level. I rogue should earn those at the same time (at the very least). The issue was never "how much other characters had to waste in order to keep up with the ranger". It was the fact that other characters could be the ranger's equal at something that the ranger should be unequaled at doing. Now the barbarian is the rogues equal at sensing traps and more skilled at avoiding flatfootedness sooner in levels. Both are abilities where the rogue *should not* be contested. But it wasn't. It was folded in uncanny dodge instead. Indirect? Who are you kidding? It was by design. That's the whole point. That's funny. When was last time you saw a fighter sacrifice their multiple attacks per round to perform one [i]feint in combat[/i] and hit a rogue? Now another rogue with sneak attack... I can't help if you choose to be oblivious to my counterpoints. And I only repeat those points when people start arguing with issues that have long since been addressed (having only skim read the thread). I won't take the blame for them either. ----- Here we go again... You mean like rogues who can detect magical traps even though they haven't taken any ranks in Search? I'm not trying to pigeon hole anybody. Their rules have already done that. You *choose* a rogue already *knowing* that they are trapfinders. The fact that you would even allow a character to multiclass in such a fashion (5 first level classes in five levels), speak volumes. Does anybody role play anymore??? Not the way you make it sound. See above. It's either difficult to multiclass or isn't. Choose one. You can't sit on both sides of the fence. I know. And both you and KaeYoss ignored the traps that target AC. Dexterity scores do not divided the rogue and barbarian apart so much at that point. The same goes for Tracking, and yet somehow the ranger was encroached upon because of that one point. I have never said that *all* of the rogues abilities are being encroached, so don't exaggerate for meaningless effect. I have said that *quintessential rogue abilities* have been encroached upon by other characters. I have then listed those abilities. Sophistry; although really not [i]that[/i] clever. If you are foolish enough to cherry pick classes during your early fast levels, and lenient enough to allow it as a DM, then enjoy the chaos you sow in your own games. To each their own. You made a few more points about that I already addressed with KaeYoss. Read my replies to him for your answers. ------ sinmissing. Thanks for dropping in, but in all honestly, I enjoy skills just a much as you do. I consider them one of the best designed additions of the game. I have simply found that even the most well-meaning DM rarely uses more than a handful of skill checks. When I DM, I use them all the time, but that hasn't been the standard in my experiences. [/QUOTE]
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Fixing the newly broken rogue class (thanks to Andy and 3.5)
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