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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Fixing the newly broken rogue class (thanks to Andy and 3.5)
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<blockquote data-quote="Technik4" data-source="post: 1028223" data-attributes="member: 7211"><p><strong>Plausability</strong></p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>One level of monk and 2 levels of barbarian vice 3 levels of rogue is very tricky to pull off. Monk requires Lawful alignment and Barbarian requires Non-Lawful. Furthermore, concocting a story for this to happen every time you make a character can be pretty tiring, whereas it is very easily (and somewhat credible) to come up with a reason for any given adventuerer to have a few levels of rogue.</p><p></p><p>Well this is when you get into the details of multiclassing. It is usually very legitimate to take Rogue or Fighter levels when multiclassing, they are very broad classes with few strings attatched. If you want to take Fighter classes, you just say that you want to concentrate on your fighting prowess, few DMs are going to block you from doing that. If you want to improve your skills, you take a couple levels of rogue, again its very plausible. Now, you say you want to multi to Monk or Barbarian, these things are not so plausible, did your character spend time in the woods or a monastary? Do you fit the proper alignment requirements? Does it make sense for your character's background? All of those questions are more difficult to answer when it comes to Monk or Barbarian, but this is just one aspect.</p><p></p><p>From a "power-gaming" point of view levels in fighter after level 1 are usually very advantageous, whereas taking your first level in Rogue or Barbarian (and to a lesser extent Monk) is more beneficial. This is largely because at 1st level you gain max hit points (go barbarian!) and 4 times your skill ranks (woohoo Rogue). Look at it like this, a Wiz1/Rog1 has [(2+Int) x4 + 8+Int] skill points. A Rog1/Wiz1 has [(8+Int)x4 + 2+Int]. We're talking about a LOAD of skill points. Additionally the rogue gets a sneak attack which can benefit anyone (and is usually more beneficial than Rage, in the long run, for any ol' adventurer). So barb has more hit points, decent skills, +10 movement in light or medium armor, and rage versus rogue low hit points, awesome skills, and sneak attack at level 1. Level 2 gives us uncnany dodge as a barb, or evasion in light or medium armor as a rogue. Evasion is clearly more powerful, especially since you now also have a +3 reflex. Which is the better at first level mechanics-wise? I'd say it depends on the character but they are pretty dang close, evasion is the premier defense against a variety of spells and attacks.</p><p></p><p>Under the proposed build the rogue, at 2nd level, would also get Uncanny Dodge as well as Trap Sense +1. This is unbalancing as it makes the rogue not just a good choice, but a choice that is too good.</p><p></p><p>If you really want a balanced suggestion for the Barb/Rogue thing this is what I would do.</p><p></p><p>Change Evasion to 4th level for Rogue.</p><p>Change UDodge to 2nd level for Rogue.</p><p>Change Improved UDodge to 6th for Rogue</p><p></p><p>This means that the rogue gets UDodge at the same time as the Barbarian, but Evasion later than the monk. It also moves Improved UDodge to the level it got it in 3.0, which is 1 level after the barbarian. Personally, I wouldn't bother, but I recommend this as a balanced change if you want your rogue to get UDodge at the same time as the barbarian (although now it will get Evasion later than the monk!).</p><p></p><p>Technik</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Technik4, post: 1028223, member: 7211"] [b]Plausability[/b] One level of monk and 2 levels of barbarian vice 3 levels of rogue is very tricky to pull off. Monk requires Lawful alignment and Barbarian requires Non-Lawful. Furthermore, concocting a story for this to happen every time you make a character can be pretty tiring, whereas it is very easily (and somewhat credible) to come up with a reason for any given adventuerer to have a few levels of rogue. Well this is when you get into the details of multiclassing. It is usually very legitimate to take Rogue or Fighter levels when multiclassing, they are very broad classes with few strings attatched. If you want to take Fighter classes, you just say that you want to concentrate on your fighting prowess, few DMs are going to block you from doing that. If you want to improve your skills, you take a couple levels of rogue, again its very plausible. Now, you say you want to multi to Monk or Barbarian, these things are not so plausible, did your character spend time in the woods or a monastary? Do you fit the proper alignment requirements? Does it make sense for your character's background? All of those questions are more difficult to answer when it comes to Monk or Barbarian, but this is just one aspect. From a "power-gaming" point of view levels in fighter after level 1 are usually very advantageous, whereas taking your first level in Rogue or Barbarian (and to a lesser extent Monk) is more beneficial. This is largely because at 1st level you gain max hit points (go barbarian!) and 4 times your skill ranks (woohoo Rogue). Look at it like this, a Wiz1/Rog1 has [(2+Int) x4 + 8+Int] skill points. A Rog1/Wiz1 has [(8+Int)x4 + 2+Int]. We're talking about a LOAD of skill points. Additionally the rogue gets a sneak attack which can benefit anyone (and is usually more beneficial than Rage, in the long run, for any ol' adventurer). So barb has more hit points, decent skills, +10 movement in light or medium armor, and rage versus rogue low hit points, awesome skills, and sneak attack at level 1. Level 2 gives us uncnany dodge as a barb, or evasion in light or medium armor as a rogue. Evasion is clearly more powerful, especially since you now also have a +3 reflex. Which is the better at first level mechanics-wise? I'd say it depends on the character but they are pretty dang close, evasion is the premier defense against a variety of spells and attacks. Under the proposed build the rogue, at 2nd level, would also get Uncanny Dodge as well as Trap Sense +1. This is unbalancing as it makes the rogue not just a good choice, but a choice that is too good. If you really want a balanced suggestion for the Barb/Rogue thing this is what I would do. Change Evasion to 4th level for Rogue. Change UDodge to 2nd level for Rogue. Change Improved UDodge to 6th for Rogue This means that the rogue gets UDodge at the same time as the Barbarian, but Evasion later than the monk. It also moves Improved UDodge to the level it got it in 3.0, which is 1 level after the barbarian. Personally, I wouldn't bother, but I recommend this as a balanced change if you want your rogue to get UDodge at the same time as the barbarian (although now it will get Evasion later than the monk!). Technik [/QUOTE]
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Fixing the newly broken rogue class (thanks to Andy and 3.5)
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