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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Fixing the newly broken rogue class (thanks to Andy and 3.5)
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<blockquote data-quote="Sonofapreacherman" data-source="post: 1028825" data-attributes="member: 2315"><p>KaeYoss.</p><p></p><p>No, that was never what I said. You know something, I realize you hate it when I shadow every one of your nonsensical points and expose them to the light of scrutiny, but that does not make me a troll. It makes my standard for logic unrelenting.</p><p></p><p>I see now that you never understood my original point of creating niches for characters. Thank you for clarifying your profound ignorance. I can now put your posts into a whole new category.</p><p></p><p>For the same reason that Sneak Attacks do not always succeed. I suggest you think about that one for while. Get back to me when you're good and ready.</p><p></p><p>That's what I *just* said. Please try to remember the things you originally typed.</p><p></p><p>That's because, apparently, you barely skim them.</p><p></p><p>Oh my lord. Do you have the slightest clue why I even brought up that point with Technik4? I'll give you a hint. It had nothing to do with <strong>potential</strong>.</p><p></p><p>Let me make this easy for you. You do not remember right. It had to do with games that require *supervision* and preventing ridiculous role-playing.</p><p></p><p>If you want to create a balanced armor comparison, then you do not give barbarians the most restrictive medium armor type and rogues one of the most unencumbering. Tip the scales in your own favor on somebody elses time.</p><p></p><p>I never said tracking was the sole domain of ranger. Neither have I said that traps sensing and uncanny dodges are the sole domains of the rogue. You have got to stop putting words in my mouth.</p><p></p><p>Do you even know how multiclassing works? You have to keep non-favored classes within one level of each other (I.E. fairly even) to avoid XP penalties.</p><p></p><p>-----</p><p></p><p>Al.</p><p></p><p>Long time no see. How are you doing? Ah yes, I miss that paladin thread. By the by, I hate the new paladin mount. Calling it from the <em>celestrial realms where it resides</em> has got to be cheeziest revision of 3.5, not to mention one of the most blatant anti-roleplaying game mechanics in recent history. I refuse to allow it. My paladins have to look after and stable their mounts, just like everybody else. What is tabletop D&D becoming? A video game?</p><p></p><p>-----</p><p></p><p>Technik4.</p><p></p><p>You're words are sobering, but this debate has never been about powergaming or cherrypicking classes for me. It has been about putting character concepts *before* character mechanics.</p><p></p><p>More than anything, I believe that every character should have a strong identity prior to role-playing it. I strive to make sure that every class is significantly different from each other and the best at what they do. That is the premise from which I make revisions. Only after making these changes do I examine the new product from a game balance perspective, and try to make sure that no one character outshines the others too much (or at all).</p><p></p><p>In that vein, my updated revision for the rogue goes as follows…</p><p></p><p><strong>Table: The Rogue</strong></p><p><strong>Lv-Special</strong></p><p>01-Sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding</p><p>02-Trap sense +1, uncanny dodge</p><p>03-Evasion, sneak attack +2d6</p><p>04-Trap sense +2</p><p>05-Improved uncanny dodge, sneak attack +3d6</p><p>06-Trap sense +3</p><p>07-Sneak attack +4d6</p><p>08-Trap sense +4</p><p>09-Sneak attack +5d6</p><p>10-Trap sense +5</p><p>11-Sneak attack +6d6, special ability</p><p>12-Trap sense +6</p><p>13-Sneak attack +7d6</p><p>14-Special ability, trap sense +7</p><p>15-Sneak attack +8d6</p><p>16-Trap sense +8</p><p>17-Sneak attack +9d6, special ability</p><p>18-Trap sense +9</p><p>19-Sneak attack +10d6</p><p>20-Special ability, trap sense +10</p><p></p><p>Trap sense every other level, uncanny dodge at the same level as barbarians, evasion 1 level later than monks, and special abilities 1 level later in all cases, meaning that if rogues took improved evasion right away, it would also occur later than it does for monks. This also crowns rogues with a worthwhile 20th level ability.</p><p></p><p>-----</p><p></p><p>Obryn.</p><p></p><p>I might be more forgiving of Andy Collins until I discovered what he was like on his message boards first hand. And before anybody asks, I wasn't the one arguing with him at the time.</p><p></p><p><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Sonofapreacherman, post: 1028825, member: 2315"] KaeYoss. No, that was never what I said. You know something, I realize you hate it when I shadow every one of your nonsensical points and expose them to the light of scrutiny, but that does not make me a troll. It makes my standard for logic unrelenting. I see now that you never understood my original point of creating niches for characters. Thank you for clarifying your profound ignorance. I can now put your posts into a whole new category. For the same reason that Sneak Attacks do not always succeed. I suggest you think about that one for while. Get back to me when you're good and ready. That's what I *just* said. Please try to remember the things you originally typed. That's because, apparently, you barely skim them. Oh my lord. Do you have the slightest clue why I even brought up that point with Technik4? I'll give you a hint. It had nothing to do with [b]potential[/b]. Let me make this easy for you. You do not remember right. It had to do with games that require *supervision* and preventing ridiculous role-playing. If you want to create a balanced armor comparison, then you do not give barbarians the most restrictive medium armor type and rogues one of the most unencumbering. Tip the scales in your own favor on somebody elses time. I never said tracking was the sole domain of ranger. Neither have I said that traps sensing and uncanny dodges are the sole domains of the rogue. You have got to stop putting words in my mouth. Do you even know how multiclassing works? You have to keep non-favored classes within one level of each other (I.E. fairly even) to avoid XP penalties. ----- Al. Long time no see. How are you doing? Ah yes, I miss that paladin thread. By the by, I hate the new paladin mount. Calling it from the [i]celestrial realms where it resides[/i] has got to be cheeziest revision of 3.5, not to mention one of the most blatant anti-roleplaying game mechanics in recent history. I refuse to allow it. My paladins have to look after and stable their mounts, just like everybody else. What is tabletop D&D becoming? A video game? ----- Technik4. You're words are sobering, but this debate has never been about powergaming or cherrypicking classes for me. It has been about putting character concepts *before* character mechanics. More than anything, I believe that every character should have a strong identity prior to role-playing it. I strive to make sure that every class is significantly different from each other and the best at what they do. That is the premise from which I make revisions. Only after making these changes do I examine the new product from a game balance perspective, and try to make sure that no one character outshines the others too much (or at all). In that vein, my updated revision for the rogue goes as follows… [b]Table: The Rogue Lv-Special[/b] 01-Sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding 02-Trap sense +1, uncanny dodge 03-Evasion, sneak attack +2d6 04-Trap sense +2 05-Improved uncanny dodge, sneak attack +3d6 06-Trap sense +3 07-Sneak attack +4d6 08-Trap sense +4 09-Sneak attack +5d6 10-Trap sense +5 11-Sneak attack +6d6, special ability 12-Trap sense +6 13-Sneak attack +7d6 14-Special ability, trap sense +7 15-Sneak attack +8d6 16-Trap sense +8 17-Sneak attack +9d6, special ability 18-Trap sense +9 19-Sneak attack +10d6 20-Special ability, trap sense +10 Trap sense every other level, uncanny dodge at the same level as barbarians, evasion 1 level later than monks, and special abilities 1 level later in all cases, meaning that if rogues took improved evasion right away, it would also occur later than it does for monks. This also crowns rogues with a worthwhile 20th level ability. ----- Obryn. I might be more forgiving of Andy Collins until I discovered what he was like on his message boards first hand. And before anybody asks, I wasn't the one arguing with him at the time. :) [/QUOTE]
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