Fixing yo-yo syndrome

[Kzach]

I've seen it happen a lot in 4e combats and despite liking most of what 4e has to offer, it's been one of many little annoyances that I'd like to fix. The problem I'm speaking of is where characters, especially melee, tend to go down, then get up, go down, then get up, go down...

...like a yo-yo

So I put it in the back of my mind to slowly churn away at and just now I hit upon a potential solution. What if, instead of going down, you remain active, but you're immobilised, dazed and still have to make death saves?

You still die at minus bloodied, you still need to make death saves, and the fact that you can do a standard action each turn is, IMO, countered by the fact that you remain a target.

It does boost PC power a little bit since it takes away the coup de grace and gives them an extra action each round, but I really like the idea that the character is standing there, literally on their last legs, the next blow could kill them, and they're barely hanging on to life every round.

And when they're dead, they're dead, period. No more yo-yo.

What do you think?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

You could still allow a coup de grace in this state.

Try it. I think you've identified the risks and benefits pretty well, and only actual experimentation will show how well the risks and benefits cancel each other out.

 

[Kzach]

You could still allow a coup de grace in this state.

Yeah, I thought about that, but part of my reasoning was that I feel (in the standard rules) an intelligent enemy wouldn't coup de grace a dropped opponent unless they've seen that they can yo-yo.

An intelligent opponent would first of all be used to things dropping and staying down (PC's are an exception to that rule), and even if they knew that the PC's could get up again, the smart strategy is still to concentrate your attacks to eliminate current threats. Of course, if they yo-yo, then it's probably smarter to just eliminate the threat once and for all.

So by remaining a threat, they remain a target, and the no-brainer strategy is to coup de grace them, since it's probably far more effective than their own attacks or even encounters or dailies that they have.

This would make combat VERY deadly. You'd want to go down and not stay up 'cause you'd survive longer.

 

[Garthanos]

I like it you have reskinned the "downed" state for hero's very interesting. Forced movement will also visualize better and doesnt imply quite as extreme a surge ie they stumble about ... the exhaustion and out of luck state is being resisted by the heroic so its not quite as extreme. I would revert to an unconcious state after the first failed save perhaps.

 

[Rechan]

I'm not sure I understand the problem. Do you dislike that they FALL DOWN, or that they keep going from negative to positive constantly? Because the above rule isn't going to address the latter, as all they need is a healing surge spent.

 

[Garthanos]

I got the impression ... that yes the issue was a bit cosmetic.. so the fact that when in a dazed but standing state... a healing surge sends them roaring back in to battle is just fine.
Note for me ... realising heros that are down are rarely out of the fight entirely ... slapping there face and splashing it with water and reminding them with a twinkle in your eyes or love in your heart that the world needs them... can spring board them in to action.

 

[Henrix]

Don't forget that they die if they fail three death saves in an encounter - they only reset after a rest.

My players at least tend to be a little more wary when they've failed a death save or two in an encounter.

 

[Stalker0]

I think its a neat idea...but I'll caution that I think this makes players WEAKER not stronger, though it may not seem like it to them.

The rule that "monsters don't attack downed Pcs" is a really strong protection mechanism against killing pcs. When you take that way, and allow monsters to keep hitting near dead PCs (which the monsters likely will...I mean why switch targets when I've almost killed the guy) they will more then often enough....actually kill the PC.


But with that said, if your going for a more gritty, life or death type of game, I think this is a GREAT idea. I would suggest going slowed and dazed instead of immobilized and dazed. Let the guy get around at least a little.

 

[Garthanos]

I think its a neat idea...but I'll caution that I think this makes players WEAKER not stronger, though it may not seem like it to them.

yup..it give the monsters an excuse to take another shot at em.

 

[Kzach]

The rule that "monsters don't attack downed Pcs" is a really strong protection mechanism against killing pcs. When you take that way, and allow monsters to keep hitting near dead PCs (which the monsters likely will...I mean why switch targets when I've almost killed the guy) they will more then often enough....actually kill the PC.

As far as I'm aware, that's not a rule.

As I said, it's an intelligent tactic to focus attacks on a current threat, but having said that, if a PC yo-yo's, then I'd coup de grace the second or third time it happens.

And dumb animals would just coup de grace the first time a character goes down 'cause they don't know any different.