Flame Seed and Forced Movement

[abyssaldeath]

I actually did mean yes and no. It makes sense to me that when someone is being moved into the zone is entering it.

It does not make sense that in a situation where neither of the requirements are being fulfilled (either entering the area, or starting your turn in the area) that someone would be taking the damage. In the second case, the person started in the zone (however it was not their turn so they didn't take damage) and was moved OUTSIDE the zone, which still isn't entering the zone. I don't understand why the answer to 2 is yes.

Because the bad guy started outside the zone force moved into the zone then back out. Sine he started outside the zone he did enter the zone. It's just that by the end of the forced movement he ended outside the zone.

 

[Flipguarder]

Hmm. We're reading question 2 differently, it seems. I read it as:

"Target is affected by power outside of zone, moved through zone to another square outside of zone." In which case, yes, the target "entered" the zone.

But you seem to have read it as:

"Target is in zone, and is then moved through zone until he's outside it."

If that's what the OP meant, then no, the target would not take damage.

Ah ha, there we go. Yes I completely agree with all o' that

 

[HealingAura]

So to sum it up, there are 4 situations:

A target not in the zone being moved into the zone takes the damage twice (during the current turn and during his turn).
A target not in the zone being moved through the zone into a square outside of the zone takes the damage once (during the current turn).
A target in the zone being moved to a square in the zone takes the damage once (during his turn).
A target in the zone being moved to a square outside of the zone through a square in the zone takes no damage.

Now I have a more complex question:

What happens if you enter the zone twice during the same turn?

You have targeted an enemy @ and made all adjacent squares a fiery zone #. An ally slides an enemy from A to B. Notice that @ is not part of the zone.

 A
###
#@#
###
 B

Will the enemy take the damage twice?

 

[dvorak]

PHB pg 285

FORCED MOVEMENT
✦ No Opportunity Actions: Forced movement does not provoke opportunity attacks or other opportunity actions.

Forced Movement has become a thorn for many in terms of what-if scenarios. I can only recommend for the group to discuss how they want their game to resolve, while providing different points of view prior to playing.

The group I play with have changed the name Force Movement to Forced Relocation since the character or NPC do not decide where they end up. The above quote serves as our reminder that the initial time a character/NPC enters the affected area should not damage them. Going through the area will not damage the character or NPC. However beginning their turn inside will cause damage.

Of course if we come across a Specific Beats General (pg 11) question we make every attempt to be logical in our ruling.

Bottom line, we have fun regardless of how it turns out.

Ciao

 

[Mouseferatu]

Thing is, the damage of the zone is not an opportunity action. It's something that simply happens when the creature "enters" the square in question. Nowhere do the rules specify how that "entering" must occur.

Nothing wrong with how you guys are playing it, if that's what you prefer. But it's not, so far as I can determine, the Rules as Written, which is what the OP was (presumably) asking about.

 

[Mistwell]

The Hit effect of the 1st level at will Druid attack "Flame Seed" is:
1d6 fire damage, and the squares adjacent to the target become a fiery zone that lasts until the end of your next turn. Any enemy that enters the zone or starts its turn there takes fire damage equal to your Wisdom modifier.

The crucial word here is "enters the zone".

Customer Service clarified this term, saying that if it says enter then forced movement triggers it, but if it says move then forced movement does not trigger it.

What happens if the enemy is being moved by a forced movement into the affected zone? Will the enemy take Wisdom modifier fire damage twice? (during the forced movement and at the start of its turn)

Yes. Forced movement triggers due the use of the phrase "enters the zone" in the description.

What happens if the enemy is being moved by a forced movement into a square outside of the affected zone, but through it? Will the enemy take Wisdom modifier fire damage?

Yes. Forced movement triggers due the use of the phrase "enters the zone" in the description.

 

[DracoSuave]

Forced Movement does not create an exception to the meaning of entering a square. It only creates an exception to the Opportunity Actions themselves.

If it -did- create an exception, then the rule that allows you to roll a save to go prone rather than enter hazardous terrain would do nothing. If no forced movement allowed you to 'enter' a square, then you could not be forced to enter a square, and therefore, could not roll prone to avoid the consequences of that square.

As well, traps that triggered on you entering the square could not operate. This would include pit traps. Thusly, you could create the situation where someone could push you one square over a 400 foot cliff and you would hover there, unaffected, because you did not 'enter' that square.

Therefore, yes, you take Wisdom damage, and if he remained in that square, he'd take it again.

And yes, forced movement -is- supposed to be that good.

 

[N8Ball]

Maybe.

That is damn funny... and not even any repeat posters in the group.

Reminds me of Statler and Waldorf from the muppets, great stuff.

 

[Mahali]

Reminds me of Statler and Waldorf from the muppets, great stuff.

Just liked some opinions on rules. "Different. Awefull, but different."

 

[dvorak]

By RAW I contend it needs to be clarified. As for WoTC Customer Service they have contradicted themselves a few times on similar questions in the past.

Here is another thread off of the old Wizards board ** asking a similar question:

Q. Re: cleric powers: Command (lvl 3) and Blade Barrier (lvl 9) - Wizards Community

**From Google cache

Quoting from Lyoncage:

While at this moment I can not provide links to every thread that has asked this question with many many many answers provided by Customer Service it has been ruled many times that Forced Movement does not provoke the damage from things like Blade Barrier, Wall of Fire, etc. Now I am not trying to be rude or belittle the OP with his question. Just state that this question has been asked a lot with many different variants.

This was reinforced when I attended the DDXP in February, and sat in on the Rules Q & A session with Stephen Radney-MacFarland and Chris Sims. (Which amazed me that there were more WotC employees attending the seminar then just us regular joes) Most powers can only deal damage once per round, there are a few exceptions to this rule. So take this as a general rule of thumb you can't push/pull/slide someone through a Wall 3-4 times in a row to make them take damage multiple times.

The member goes on to say:

Well I will first start by apologizing because I didn't record the Q & A session with the Game Designers and DDXP '09. I wish I had now, but one of the very big things that Stephen Radney-MacFarland made mention of the fact forced movement should have been called forced relocation. The real issue might be with clarification of the word "move," especially as it interacts with push/pull/slide effects.

Both Chris Sims and Stephen Radney-MacFarland agreed that Forced Movement should not trigger things like blade barrier and wall of fire. However using those effects to deposit bad guys in those effects so when they start their turn they get kerploded (no kerplode is not a technical term) by the power in question.

Also take the CS ruling about Storm Pillar

Thank you for contacting Wizards of the Coast game support! Please allow me to clarify how this works.

When a character "moves" into an area, it implies action (like a move action would) and refers to intentional movement.

When a character "enters" an area, this refers to entering an area by any means, including forced movement.

Forced movement does not trigger the Storm Pillar. We intend to provide an FAQ for this in the future. And another clarification, the Storm Pillar's damage is not limited to once per round. A character moving through multiple adjacent squares will be damaged multiple times. If the terrain and positioning allow it, you can potentially trap an opponent so that in order to move where they want, they'd have to pass through 2 or 3 squares adjacent to the Storm Pillar. He would take damage each time. Heck, if you had two Storm Pillars near each other, a character entering a square that is adjacent to each of them gets damaged by each one.


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So, according to this ruling, Storm Pillar, Wall of Fire and Storm Cage do not instantly damage enemies that are forced into them. Cloud of Daggers, Freezing Cloud, Stinking Cloud, Cloud Kill and Acid Storm still do. And take note that it is said that WotC is going to provide additional info on this over all. It means that WotC is more then aware of the issue and are going to take steps to address the community as a whole when they can. I can wait...and in the end I am pretty sure I will be on the "right side" of the fence on this one.

So regardless of how you adjudicate rules Fitz (and judging by many of your posts, you are a strict RAW guy, which is fine, I honestly don't care either way how you play your games and what rulings you make, and you really ultimately should give two figs about me and mine.) At some point I think common sense and fair play needs to be taken into account...That's why I live by Rule Zero!

But I digress...A Power is given a effect and damage value based on its level and what it does. Any power that can potentially do this massive iterative damage like that runs it well beyond its base power level and thus makes it...Broken? Unfair? Out Right Silly? All of the above I say.

So...I will side with what I literally heard from the horses mouth. Take it or leave it honestly. I stick by what I deem fun and fair. And you should too.

It will take me some time to read each of those powers to further understand why some damage a PC/NPC due to Forced Movement and others do not.

Regardless of how you play the game I am still a believer that any group should discuss how they intend to rule this scenario before they begin playing. This way there is no question when it comes up.