Flame Seed on the ground

[Iceman75]

Would you allow a druid to throw his acorn on the ground at the square that a foe occupies creating a zone around the foe just by hitting the ground?

 

[DracoSuave]

No. This -clearly- is trying to bag-of-rats it so that you get the zone around the enemy without getting the hit. This isn't using flame seed to set a campfire on fire, this is using it to avoid an attack roll for a consequence to an enemy that -should- get the benefit of his defenses.

 

[Samir]

Would you allow a druid to throw his acorn on the ground at the square that a foe occupies creating a zone around the foe just by hitting the ground?

Flame Seed only creates a zone of fire if it hits your target, so he'd still have to roll an attack against the creature in the square.

 

[Iceman75]

True ... but

There is also a part that says that a DM may allow you to attack objects with attacks that normally target a creature.

PHB Errata:

Target [Addition]
Player’s Handbook, page 57​

Add the following sentences to the end of the first paragraph: “Some powers include objects as targets. At the DM’s discretion, a power that targets a creature can also target an object, whether or not the power lists an object as a potential target.”

Is the ground not considered an object?​

 

[Mouseferatu]

Emphasis on the first phrase of sentence two: "At the DM's discretion..."

IOW, it's meant to allow PCs to attack objects to do things like break through doors and cut ropes. It's not meant to allow players to circumvent attack rolls.

No, I would not allow it--not without an attack roll just as difficult as if he was attacking a creature, anyway--and I'd question the judgment of the DM I was playing with if s/he did.

 

[Samir]

There is also a part that says that a DM may allow you to attack objects with attacks that normally target a creature.

PHB Errata:

Target [Addition]
Player’s Handbook, page 57​

Add the following sentences to the end of the first paragraph: “Some powers include objects as targets. At the DM’s discretion, a power that targets a creature can also target an object, whether or not the power lists an object as a potential target.”​

Is the ground not considered an object?

Generally, no. You can attack a square (and you have to if you're fighting an invisible creature), but the rules dictate that to attack a square you make an attack roll against a creature in that square, and if there's no creature in the square, you miss.

More importantly, an attack has no effect if what it hits is not a "meaningful threat." Even if you did finagle a hit on the ground, it would still produce no flames because the ground is not a meaningful threat. (I'm pretty sure close and area attacks are an exception to this.)

This is a gray area, however. The most important phrase in the paragraph you quoted is "DM's discretion." It's up to the DM to prevent bag-of-rats scenarios.

 

[Trebor62]

Without checking I believe when attacking a invisible creature you pick a square to attack and attack the invisible creatures defense with a -5 for total concealment. If you hit the defense you have a hit only if you attacked the correct square.