Flanking with a ranged weapon?

[RigaMortus2]

Previously, I didn't think it was possible to flank at range, but...

If my ally (a Rogue) is fighting an enemy (a goblin), and I (also a Rogue) am on the other side of that enemy but about 30 feet away, is that enemy considered flanked (and thus Sneak Attackable) if I shoot him with a bow?

When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.

I am not making a melee, so I agree that I wouldn't be getting the +2 (flanking) bonus to my attack roll, which is fine. I am more concerned with doing Sneak Attack damage.

However, the second part of this is true, the opponent (goblin) is being threatened by a character friendly to me (my ally) on the opponent's opposite border.

Also...

When in doubt about whether two friendly characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two friendly characters’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.

I think that right there pretty much settles it. Since, if we draw the imaginary line between me and my friend, it will pass through the opposite border of the goblin (opponent's) space.

Thoughts?

PS - The title of the post is a little misleading. I don't think you can help to flank an enemy with a ranged weapon. HOWEVER, I think an enemy can be flanked by an ally (not by the ranged weapon user) and succumb to any consequences (such as Sneak Attack) if other conditions are met. Essentially, my ally is flanking the opponent and I get to reap the benefits with Sneak Attack, however, I am not flanking the opponent, so when it is my ally's turn to attack, he does not get Sneak Attack.

 

[Critic of the Dawn]

If you don't get a flanking bonus, from my parsing of the text you are not actually flanking. Nothing seems to indicate that you can be flanking in a case when a flanking bonus is denied to you. While the RAW and the FAQ do not appear to specifically state that flanking does not apply in the case you suggested, the examples given seem to suggest that this was the intention.

I interpret the Flanking Rules to indicate that the creature must be in the threatened squares of two creatures on opposite sides of it, and that the test is to draw an imaginary line to see if it passes through opposite borders of the creatures space. Unless you have some way of threatening squares with your bow (normally this is not possible, but there may be spells or prestige classes that allow it), I would not allow you to flank with it. If you did get some way to threaten with your bow, however, I think it would make sense to allow you to flank with it - one of the examples given in the PHB has a Hobgoblin gaining the benefit of flanking while using a reach weapon, so if you can figure out a way to use your bow in the same way, I'd consider it okay.

Note that even if your DM allowed you to flank with a bow, you would still take a -4 to your attack roll for firing into melee unless you had the Precise Shot feat.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

"When making a melee attack,..." seems to be to be a specific statement


As such, Flanking does not apply to making a ranged weapon attack. You cannot get Sneak Attack with a Bow due to a Flanking bonus.

Sorry, you need to get a grappler or deny Dex for your target in some other manner. {and stay within 30' }

 

[Hypersmurf]

I am not making a melee, so I agree that I wouldn't be getting the +2 (flanking) bonus to my attack roll, which is fine. I am more concerned with doing Sneak Attack damage.

PS - The title of the post is a little misleading. I don't think you can help to flank an enemy with a ranged weapon. HOWEVER, I think an enemy can be flanked by an ally (not by the ranged weapon user) and succumb to any consequences (such as Sneak Attack) if other conditions are met.

If you're drawing a distinction between the flanking bonus and the 'flank an opponent' status, and declaring that the only requirement for 'flank an opponent' is the line test, note that as well as 'making a melee attack' not being required, neither is 'ally threatens the opponent'.

Let's say my ally, with his hands in his pockets, is at one end of a hundred foot long corridor. Let's say I'm at the other end, with my bow. Let's say there's an orc at the halfway point.

I'm not making a melee attack - I can't get a flanking bonus. My ally doesn't threaten the opponent - I definitely can't get a flanking bonus. But we satisfy the line test - if my ally and I trace a line between our centres, it passes through opposite sides of the orc's square.

Note that if there's a closed door between my ally and the orc, the line test still works - the imaginary line is drawn between my square and his square, with no mention made of cover.

So, if you draw a distinction between the flanking bonus and the 'flank an opponent' status, and declare that the only requirement for 'flank an opponent' is the line test, then yes, you can sneak attack with a bow when your ally threatens an opponent from directly opposite... but you can also sneak attack with a bow when your ally is a fifty feet away from your opponent, on the other side of a closed door, as long as he's somewhere in the correct arc to intersect your line test.

-Hyp.

 

[MarkB]

I think that right there pretty much settles it. Since, if we draw the imaginary line between me and my friend, it will pass through the opposite border of the goblin (opponent's) space.

Thoughts?

You seem to be ignoring the "When in doubt" part. You only make that check after you've fulfilled all the other requirements - the requirement that you're making a melee attack, and the requirement that your ally is threatening the opponent - and just have some doubts about whether you fulfill the positional requirements.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

On the other hand, if the line test is not the sole determiner of whether or not you are flanking someone, then Formians, et al., are immune to flanking.

Shall we go 'round this one again, Hyp?

 

[Hypersmurf]

On the other hand, if the line test is not the sole determiner of whether or not you are flanking someone, then Formians, et al., are immune to flanking.

Which bothers me far less than ranged flanking.

-Hyp.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Heh.

Flanking's all kinds of odd.

Your invisible friend, who's not even attacking anything (doesn't want to break invis) can help you get a flanking bonus.

Two pixie rogues have a *really* hard time mugging pixie fighters.

Etc.

 

[Sejs]

An invisible, non-hostile ally with a weapon in hand, and who happens to be on the opposite side of an enemy from you grants you a flanking bonus, despite the fact that neither you, nor the enemy have any idea that he's there.

An illusion of a menacing orc wielding an axe, who just happens to miss every attack, on the opposite side of an enemy from you does not grant you a flanking bonus, even if the illusion is completely convincing and the opponent diverts his defensive attention just as he would for a real foe.

Flanking's wacky.

 

[Rvdvelden]

When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.

combined with (bold and italic added):

Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can’t make attacks of opportunity.

makes flanking very simple:

1) does the 'friendly character/creature' threaten the opponent, aka can he make a melee attack against the opponent? If not, no flanking, if so --> 2
2) is the 'friendly character/creature' on the opposing border (when in doubt, draw a line)? If not, no flanking, if so.... flanking bonus!!!

Now, the only discussion that could arise is about the word can (in italic). Any sane DM would rule that either a (natural)melee weapon must be at the ready. If you're a wacky DM (or a munchkin), you could argue that a rogue with a rapier on his side CAN make a melee attack (although he needs to draw it first and even may need to drop his bow for that), but anyone that tries to argue this can expect a severe beating by his fellow players.