Flesh to Stone spell - why the poor rating

[ScuroNotte]

Reading through the class guides, most give this spell a poor rating which I don't understand.

I know it is a Con save which is not a good save to go against, but if the the creature fails the first save, it is restrained until it succeeds on 3 saves. Its not like other spells in which once it saves the spell is done.

While it is restrained, it has a speed of 0. That dragon or whatever flying creature can't fly and all attacks against it are at advantage. And its attacks are at disadvantage.

So what am I missing for its poor grade?

 

[FrogReaver]

Reading through the class guides, most give this spell a poor rating which I don't understand.

I know it is a Con save which is not a good save to go against, but if the the creature fails the first save, it is restrained until it succeeds on 3 saves. Its not like other spells in which once it saves the spell is done.

While it is restrained, it has a speed of 0. That dragon or whatever flying creature can't fly and all attacks against it are at advantage. And its attacks are at disadvantage.

So what am I missing for its poor grade?

What spells are the guides in question rating highly for 6th level spells?

 

[Zardnaar]

Reading through the class guides, most give this spell a poor rating which I don't understand.

I know it is a Con save which is not a good save to go against, but if the the creature fails the first save, it is restrained until it succeeds on 3 saves. Its not like other spells in which once it saves the spell is done.

While it is restrained, it has a speed of 0. That dragon or whatever flying creature can't fly and all attacks against it are at advantage. And its attacks are at disadvantage.

So what am I missing for its poor grade?

Its a con save for starters and it takes 3 failed saves to do much of anything. A level 5 hold monster spell is one save and grants paralysis which is auto crits, is one level lower and does more and its not a con save which a lot of critters areeither proficient in and/or have decent con scores. Hold monster in a 6th level slot also hits 2 targets.

That is the basic idea. The spell is outclassed by lower level spells.

 

[ScuroNotte]

What spells are the guides in question rating highly for 6th level spells?

All agree on Mass Suggestion and Contingency are must haves, then variances on Otto's dance, Disintegrate, etc.

For Flesh to Stone, whats commented is it is a save or nothing spell, or does no damage for a 6th level spell.

I guess I wasn't comparing it to 6th level spells but what the potential benefits could be.

 

[FrogReaver]

All agree on Mass Suggestion and Contingency are must haves, then variances on Otto's dance, Disintegrate, etc.

For Flesh to Stone, whats commented is it is a save or nothing spell, or does no damage for a 6th level spell.

I guess I wasn't comparing it to 6th level spells but what the potential benefits could be.

I think another factor to is that legendary resistance is going to be more prevalent at these levels especially on the kinds of enemies you really want to use such a spell on.

 

[ScuroNotte]

Its a con save for starters and it takes 3 failed saves to do much of anything. A level 5 hold monster spell is one save and grants paralysis which is auto crits, is one level lower and does more and its not a con save which a lot of critters areeither proficient in and/or have decent con scores. Hold monster in a 6th level slot also hits 2 targets.

That is the basic idea. The spell is outclassed by lower level spells.

I Know the Con save is a negative against it, but I don't agree that you have to wait for 3 fails before it does anything. It is restrained which offers you advantages and the creature disadvantages. Its not paralyzed as the Hold spell, but it still has benefits.
Potentially the Hold Monster spell may last only one round while this spell could last beyond 3 levels, giving advantage on all attacks.

The biggest negative is the Con save which most high CR creatures have and are proficient in.

 

[FrogReaver]

I Know the Con save is a negative against it, but I don't agree that you have to wait for 3 fails before it does anything. It is restrained which offers you advantages and the creature disadvantages. Its not paralyzed as the Hold spell, but it still has benefits.
Potentially the Hold Monster spell may last only one round while this spell could last beyond 3 levels, giving advantage on all attacks.

The biggest negative is the Con save which most high CR creatures have and are proficient in.

Have you looked at the level 1 faerie fire spell?

 

[ScuroNotte]

Have you looked at the level 1 faerie fire spell?

Not until now. I see you can get advantage on attacks with a 1st level spell. But also your allies potentially.

The main feature I was focusing on was grounding a flying creature or keeping a creature at a distance while attacking it with ranged weapons and spells while possibly preventing it from successfully attacking you, unless it had spells or abilities to attack creatures from afar.

The drawback I can see is to select a spell that you are planning to use if a certain situation arises.

 

[ScuroNotte]

I think another factor to is that legendary resistance is going to be more prevalent at these levels especially on the kinds of enemies you really want to use such a spell on.

Yes, or spell caster humanoids/creatures who would normally have low Con scores would have minions and spells to compensate for lack of mobility, unless you have another caster with Silence spell for example. But again, focusing on certain uses.

 

[FrogReaver]

Not until now. I see you can get advantage on attacks with a 1st level spell. But also your allies potentially.

The main feature I was focusing on was grounding a flying creature or keeping a creature at a distance while attacking it with ranged weapons and spells while possibly preventing it from successfully attacking you, unless it had spells or abilities to attack creatures from afar.

The drawback I can see is to select a spell that you are planning to use if a certain situation arises.

Dude don't get all argumentative. All I'm saying is that Faerie Fire is a freaking level 1 spell and it's not that much weaker than the level 6 Flesh to Stone spell you are talking about.

Tasha's Hideous laughter, another level 1 spell that can/will cause most flying enemies to be prone and unable to stand (they fall when they are prone). Yea I get neither of these combine all those effects into 1 spell but we are talking about freaking level 1 spells vs level 6 spells.