Flip-Flopping Blackguards and so on....

Mishima

First Post
Please be so kind as to ignore the game running failiures I have committed as DM in order to have reached the following point. I would not trouble you, my esteemed peers, were I not in a mild conundrum (partly of my own making, but no matter).

In essence, my situation breaks down as follows:

A player of mine, running a human half-celestial paladin is slain by servants of the Devil, Mammon whilst attempting to free a clutch of celestial pegasi from a diabolical strnghold on the prime material plane. THe rest of the party are able to escape, but are not able to claim said PC's mortal remains. Mammon's underling, Bael, resurrects the PC in order to ascertain the rest of the PC's intentions and corrupt the celestial for his master. I let the player know that agreeing to be 'brought back' by such a terrible creature, was tantamount to surrendering his paladinhood, which he duly did upon returning to life. Indeed, since the PC's and Mammons goals were not incompatible, the paladin became a Blackguard whom remained with the party whilst serving his devil masters needs. Trust me when I say this all made good narrative sense, though I am well aware of the DM's out there who would have converted the PC to an NPC. At any rate I chose not to, envisaging a rich seam of adventure ideas for the future.

At any rate, after notching up 6 levels of blackguard atop his 5 Fallen Paladin levels, the player unexpectedly threw himself upon the mercy of Athena (a major deity in my worlds pantheon) and I accepted his desire for redemption, setting him a quest which would require him to bring the guiding light of Athena's religion to a savage and inhospitable wasteland. All very well and good....and now I realise I'm pontificating, since my question is relatively simple:

What the heck becomes of Blackguard levels if one abandons ones patron outsider? Is this merely a roleplaying problem? I found no guidance in either The Book of Vile Darkness or The Book of Exalted Deeds...would returning to paladinhood require a rebuild quest as described in the Players Handbook 2? I told the player that either way, his soul belonged to Mammon since he had signed it away, and such contracts were divinely mandated...he accepted the tragedy of this with enthusiasm (which secretly relieved me).
So...fallen Blackguard levels....any takers? What precisley are the details, if any? I remain in the debt of any who step up to answer my silly question.
 

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There are rules in the Exalted Deeds for redeeming evil creatures. Those might be of some use or give you somewhere to start.

You may be falling into heavy House Rule territory here - Perhaps allow him to regain them all as Paladin levels dedicated to Athena; or allow his previous Paladin levels to stack and become active with new Paladin levels and the Blackgaurd levels to become inert like the Paladin's does when falling from grace.
 

Well, it all depends.

First, don't feel like you've failed in any way. This is a fantastic turn of events if truly unplanned and heartfelt. Well done. I always feel like Paladins are Jedi waiting to Sith out if they stumble over a puppy. Whatever. I'm glad someone's telling a story that goes the other direction.

Second -- If the feats worked, I'd permit him to trade Blackguard levels for Grey Guard, from Complete Scoundrel. It's got the right feel to it -- bloodstained paladin who has seen the darker side of things. But I'd permit this only if I thought it wasn't some pre-planned twink move.

cheers,

Carpe
 

Mishima said:
PI found no guidance in either The Book of Vile Darkness or The Book of Exalted Deeds...would returning to paladinhood require a rebuild quest as described in the Players Handbook 2? I told the player that either way, his soul belonged to Mammon since he had signed it away, and such contracts were divinely mandated...he accepted the tragedy of this with enthusiasm (which secretly relieved me).
So...fallen Blackguard levels....any takers? What precisley are the details, if any? I remain in the debt of any who step up to answer my silly question.

Honestly, I don't see him as "returning to paladinhood," myself. I think being a blackguard just taints you too much to reach that level of purity. Thus, I side with Carpe DM and using the Gray Guard or some other "not quite paladin" class.

Then again, if you want it as a character focused thing rather than "keep this character as playable," you could state that his levels are fixed and gets none of the abilities of either paladin or blackguard. That probably makes the character unplayable, but you could always have some sort of PHB II rebuild quest to gain a mixture of fighter and cleric levels instead. The quest would be pretty challenging on the face if it with a character having few of their actual abilities.
 

Hey, if you allow him to redeem himself, why not allow him to trade in his Blackguard levels for Paladin levels? It's not broken from a mechanical standpoint.

Cheers, -- N
 

Nifft said:
Hey, if you allow him to redeem himself, why not allow him to trade in his Blackguard levels for Paladin levels? It's not broken from a mechanical standpoint.

Cheers, -- N
Or a flavor standpoint. This seems the best and easiest solution to me.
 

Thankyou!

I knew you'd come to the rescue!

Thanks to all of you who responded so quickly and for not making me feel a total fool! The Gray Guard sounds quite appealing....I'd avoided the Complete Scoundrel on the grounds of rogues not featuring hugely in my games. Now I feel that terrible twinge whenever I HAVE to own a new D&D product. Ugh, western society!

Thanks again...


---M
 



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